Not making the same mistake twice

[kayaklogger]

well, I did in fact smoke my new 361 (cringe). It's in the shop right now and I'll be paying a few hundred bucks to restore it to pre doug fir milling condition. It has become painfully apparant that the 361 just ain't gonna do the job, nor do I want to kill it (again) trying to do the job. So, it looks like I'm on to bigger saws and spending more money. Another new saw is out of the question, but I'm really leary of the ebay saws. There is a o66 on there for 460 right now, and I could probably get it for 500bucks but how do I know if the compression and cylinder are good. And 500 bucks is still a lot of money. I'd rather buy a new saw and have it work than a used saw that sucks.

My question to you veteran millers is, where do you think the smart money is for a guy like me who isn't going to be milling a lot but does need a big saw to do the job once in a while? Saw reccomendation, sources? I'd rather get it right this time.

Man, I feel like a dumbass killing a brand new saw.

 

[excess650]

I bought a rebuilt 066 with new bar and chain for about $550 to my door. It was an Ebay deal, and turned out to be a good saw. I later became the owner of another 066, well used, and then a 660 basket case. I opted for Bailey's big bore kits for top end rebuilds on two of the saws, and one BB has seen a fair amout of milling useage.

IMO, more displacement is better for milling. :chainsawguy: The 066/660 is still light enough to use as a chainsaw. Bigger saws like the 084, 088/880 and Husqvarna 3120 are heavy, but fine if dedicated to a mill.

New saws? Husqvarna 385xp, 390xp, 395xp, Stihl MS650, MS660, Dolmar 7900 with the preference to the larger displacement saws.

Used? Check the Tradin' Post here on AS, or post a WTB for a Stihl 066/650/660. In that there are lots of parts OEM and aftermarket available for them, it makes them even more attractive.

For your next milling experience, mix your fuel not more than 40-1 with a good mix oil, and then tune it so that its at least 1K rpm less than the spec. The extra oil will help keep things lubed, and the extra fuel will help keep it cooler.

 

[Brmorgan]

I honestly can't recommend buying a new saw specifically for milling unless you're going to be doing it for a living and need that little extra bit of assurance of reliability. You'll be working it hard anyway so it won't look new for very long, and you may as well let someone else take the hit on depreciation. That being said, your new 361 still shouldn't have blown up on you unless your mix was off or it was running a bit lean. Were you running it at factory settings? Because they're sending them out the factory door these days running so lean to meet the emissions requirements that they aren't lasting as long as they should even under casual use. I've done a fair amount of smaller Douglas Fir milling with my Husky 50, and while it isn't the fastest it hasn't had any problems with the workload because I run it a little on the rich side.

I'll second Excess650's vote for a lightly used 394/395 or 066/660. Both are reliable and powerful and easy to find parts for if need be, though each has its own idiosyncrasies that suit some people better than others. There are already myriad threads on this site comparing the two, so I won't bother going through all of that right now.

I totally understand your misgivings about getting a saw off eBay - there have been a few folks here get the short end of the stick on a deal, but personally I've never been shortchanged or misled on an eBay transaction of any type. If you're really apprehensive about using eBay I'd agree with Excess650's suggestion of keeping an eye on the Trading Post here. It eliminates the time restrictions and fees of auctions, and the chances of getting screwed over are minimal since we're all in a community of sorts here and have a vested interest in staying a member in good standing. If someone mis-advertises a saw and sells a real lemon to someone, everyone here would know about it in short order!

I'll keep an eye out around town here for a good used saw as the bigger ones come into the pawn shops etc. here fairly frequently, but many of them aren't worth buying as they've been run hard by fallers. Still, I've found quite a few good deals recently. What kind of price range are you thinking about? I'll check the shops this week if I get time and let you know if I find anything.

 

[BobL]

Before you buy and run another saw in a mill I suggest you investigate what went wrong with the 361. A 361 should be able to cut 18" anything on the Oregon Coast without killing it. I have milled 18" Aussie hardwood with my 50 cc all plastic Homelite 340 for days on end without a problems, If you are doing something wrong you need to know about it before you fork out $ for another saw and end up doing the same thing to it.

Some members have already referred to the mix: Are you sure you had it right? It would only take one mistake to refill with raw gas to do what happened. Moving to 40:1 is extra protection for a little saw but I think it should also run 50:1 with a good synthetic.

How sharp was the chain? Most people I see sharpen think they have sharpened their chain and when I cast an eye over it I see most of the the cutter edges still glinting at me and rakers that are too high. Milling requires much more attention to the chain that it what is needed for a bit of small log firewood cutting.

How hard were you pushing? Most people I see CS milling are pushing their saws/mills way too hard. If anything more than a light lean on the saw is needed to get it to cut, then the load on the engine is too great and/or the chain is too blunt or the rakers are too high. If the log /cant is set up on a slope the saw should cut under its own weight - if it doesn't there is something wrong.

How often did you run the saw completely out of mix? That's the point where the saw runs really lean and can heat up the engine. If the mix is already too low on oil this is a critical danger point.

 

[kayaklogger]

hey brad, thanks for responding, I'm looking at about 500 dollars as my budget (I blew my wad on the new, and now fried, 361). I'll check the trading post, I'm also thinking about an 066 up on ebay in less than an hour.

as far as what happened to the 361, I was running it 50/1, with too little bar oil, too hard, too soon. Had I done one of many things a little different the saw would be fine. I was just having so much fun milling these pretty VG doug fir boards, I didn't slow down to break in the saw properly and, well, now I'm paying for it. The saw wasn't seized, and had decent compression, the piston was just all scratched up.

I'm almost tempted to put on the ported muffler, crank up the bar oil, give it a richer mix and try again, but what I'm realizing is that even under optimal conditions milling is hard on a saw, and probably better suited to giant used saws that you don't care about as much.

live and learn I guess

 

[wavefreak]

There's a 395xp in the trading forum for $650. I would buy it but I just married off my son and I can't even seem to find money in the couch cushions.

 

[mscott]

I've used a ms361 with a mini mill quite a bit for over the last year. It was broken in on firewood but I've used it to mill extremely hard for a few hours only stopping to refuel. I use Baileys regular oil mixed at 40:1. I don't push it into the cut real hard and keep a very sharp ripping chain. It runs a 25" bar. Bar oil is factory set as are carb. settings. Its slabbed the sides on several hundred feet of poplar for the ms660 that I use with the alaskan mill. I broke the ms660 in with the mill bolted to it. I could feel it breaking in as I was milling and it seems to have been fully ready to go around 5 or 6 tanks of fuel. Now I run it as hard as it will go. The ms660 was purchased for milling only as I'm not so sure I want to carry it up these hills in WV. to saw firewood. Just bought a LM2000 to help get enough roughcut for a barn before winter. Going to keep the ms361 and ms660 for specialty work.
Mike

 

[FJH]

The saw will do the job!I Sawed lumber with a mac ten It never complained!
You need to run it rich fuel wise! Lean will kill it!The hi speed screw should be set so the saw is just off of runing smooth at full throtle!turn the screw so the saw just dosent spatter at top rpm (runs smooth) then turn the screw back till it just starts to spater a bit! I like more oil in the mix when milling but thats a personal thing.The saw I use for milling now is a 2100 husky I have seazed it twice by the carb coming loose and the mix leaned out.I run 25 to one mix I beleive it calls for 40 to 1 ,once into a big doug fir the smoke goes away when its pulling hard burns every spec of fuel and oil that goes in!

 

[Brmorgan]

Bob made a good point about not running the saw out of fuel while milling. It's never a good idea because of the lean condition it creates, but couple this with an engine that's already pushing the heat limits from the extra stress of milling and it can only take a few seconds to score the piston a bit. Do it a few times and it can add up.

 

[BlueRider]

Chain saws don't have gas guages and as such it is common practice to run them out of fuel on every tank. they are designed to be run out of gas. I was told this by a gold trained Stihl tech who said that when a saw runs dry it will aproach 90:1 mix ratio. It might only run for a second or two at that extreme ratio but stihl designs their saws to run at this ratio so that when they are run dry it will not damage them. so the logical next question would be "why not run them at 90:1 all the time?". 90:1 would be fine with a full synthetic oil as long as you never run it dry. In fact Amsoil recomends using 100:1 ratios with their 2 cycle oils. I'm not brave enough to run my vintage saws on 100:1 while milling but the folks at Amsoil wouldn't keep that recomendation on the label if it was buring up engines.

Doug fir is notorius for creating excessive dust while milling and clogging air filters this can cause extreme loss of power and even heat build up when the ports on the fan get clogged.

break in is not as critical as many seem to think. A saw will not reach full compression/power untill the rings are seated. but it will still run and it really won't damage the saw to mill with it before the rings are seated. I know this from repeaded experiance of milling with fresh rings. The first time was in 1994 with a new set of rings in an 051. that saw is still running fine on 50:1 mix. two years ago my 038M broke a ring and toasted a P&C I replaced it and after half a tank needed to mill 200Bf of olive and the saw has been running fine ever since. Last fall I compleated a 051 to 075 conversion on a real minty late model 051 and used a new P&C from a 076 super, I have only used this saw for milling and the only break in it got was I let it warm up before sinking the 42" bar into a 30" walnut log, and it has continued to see a lot of wide walnut in the last 6 months.

As others have said you do need to find the problem with your ms361. Its a good saw, a bit under sized to be an ideal milling saw but fully capable none the less for 12"-18" logs. I am guessing Bob hit the nail on the head with his idea about the chain not being sharp and over taxing the saw by pushing it too hard..

 

[BobL]

Chain saws don't have gas guages and as such it is common practice to run them out of fuel on every tank. they are designed to be run out of gas. I was told this by a gold trained Stihl tech who said that when a saw runs dry it will aproach 90:1 mix ratio. It might only run for a second or two at that extreme ratio but stihl designs their saws to run at this ratio so that when they are run dry it will not damage them. so the logical next question would be "why not run them at 90:1 all the time?". 90:1 would be fine with a full synthetic oil as long as you never run it dry. In fact Amsoil recomends using 100:1 ratios with their 2 cycle oils. I'm not brave enough to run my vintage saws on 100:1 while milling but the folks at Amsoil wouldn't keep that recomendation on the label if it was buring up engines.

Now I'm starting to worry about that gold trained stihl tech you keep referring to!
When the saw runs out of gas that does not change the mix ratio. The ratio of oil/lube to gas stays the same! What changes is the air to mix ratio and for those 10 - 15 seconds or so the saw is running much leaner than usual.

What I would have expected a gold trained tech to say is, that for those 10 - 15 seconds when the saw runs out of gas there is less lube entering the engine per unit time and that this is similar to using a very high mix ratios and this can affect the saw, but the mix ratio does not change. The real potential cause of overheating problems remains the high air to mix ratio - its like an extreme leaning out of the saw during that time - so the temp of the engine will rise significantly even during that short time due to this effect and no amount of lube can help an overheated saw. Sure a lack of lube adds to this problem but comparisons to using higher mix ratios are not quite the same.

I agree that a well tuned saw that is not significantly overloaded can easily cope with running out of mix many times but if the saw and chain are poorly maintained and already over heated when it arrives at this point - running out of gas just adds to the problem.

 

[woodshop]

Before you buy and run another saw in a mill I suggest you investigate what went wrong with the 361. A 361 should be able to cut 18" anything on the Oregon Coast without killing it. I have milled 18" Aussie hardwood with my 50 cc all plastic Homelite 340 for days on end without a problems, If you are doing something wrong you need to know about it before you fork out $ for another saw and end up doing the same thing to it.

My thoughts exactly when I read this thread... a 361 that is tuned up, has a SHARP chain and run with the correct mix should run all day long without burning up as long as you're not abusing it, which is not that easy to do. I would think you would have to seriously load that saw down and then keep it that way for hours all day to burn it up. Good quality chainsaws are designed for and are happiest when run full throttle under moderate load.

 

[BobL]

He WS - you been laying very low lately - watcha been up to?

 

[Brmorgan]

Incoming fuel in a 2-stroke serves two purposes - to provide a combustible material and to cool the engine. This happens because incoming fuel is in a liquid state (albeit in very fine droplets that appear gaseous). The unburnt fuel hits the cylinder wall and instantly vaporizes, taking a lot of heat away from the cylinder with it. If there isn't more fuel coming into the engine than it needs solely for combustion, it WILL overheat and the piston will melt down. Lean scoring and seizure has almost nothing to do with lubrication, it's because the piston overheats to the point where the aluminum actually begins melting and sticking to the cylinder wall.

I can respect the Stihl tech's opinion but he's talking apples and oranges here. I realize that saws don't have fuel gauges (except my 066 which has a translucent fuel tank!) but it's pretty easy to tell when a saw starts running out of fuel. Rather than letting it scream for that last 10 seconds, it should be shut off right away and re-filled. Not to mention that it will be easier to re-start afterwards since the carb won't be totally drained of fuel. I agree that running a saw out under average conditions is unlikely to hurt it, but like I said when you're already pushing the envelope as far as the engine's heat tolerance is concerned, that might be all it takes to push it over the edge and start damaging it. I'm no tech, just going on my own experiences and the great deal of reading I've done here. Just my 2¢.

 

[LAndrews]

A tip: Google 'Craigslist xxx' - substitute toy of choice for 'xxx' and see what that turns up. Sometimes people will negotiate on craigslist ads where ebay auctions cost money upfront that people want to make back.

 

[mtngun]

I tune my saws rich ...... and they still get hot. Hot enough to cause starting problems, anyway.

I'm kinda wondering if ethanol is part of the problem. Supposedly all modern saws are E10 compatible, but since E10 came along, it seems like I've had more issues with hot saws.

The E10 mix really pressurizes and then collapses the fuel jugs, too. The jugs darned near blow up if they sit in the sun. Then when it cools overnight, the jugs collapse, enough to crease the plastic. Maybe E10 is more volatile than old fashioned gasoline ? That would explain the hard starting when a saw is hot.

Tuning rich gives the saw better lube -- but it also reduces power and speed, so the saw has to work harder, and it takes longer to make the cut -- which makes the saw hotter. The ideal situation is to have a surplus of power, like a Stihl 880, so you can tune rich and yet the saw will chug through the log without breaking a sweat.

Start with a lean tuned 361, which has to work hard at milling under the best of circumstances, throw in some E10, and yeah, you may have problems.

 

[LAndrews]

If it helps any - E10 should be both more volatile and less dense than regular gas. Volatility is good for helping to cool the intake charge - but the fuel density change will dictate a carby adjustment in order to keep the true fuel-air ratio constant.

I think it's safe to say that fuel-air ratio is calculated on a mass-to-mass basis and all carbs measure both fuel and air volumetrically. Change the fuel (and/or air) density and volumetric equivalents have different masses so the ratio goes away from ideal.

The good news is that most saws will tolerate a LOT of error. True race 2/s motors don't. BTDT, got the $2K rebuild bill.

 

[woodshop]

He WS - you been laying very low lately - watcha been up to?

Thanks for asking Bob... answer: I made a lifestyle change in Jan, nothing doctors havn't been telling us all our lives... no diets, I like food too much... just the basics... eat less, eat more healthy and exercise daily. That last one is the kicker that trips most of us up because it take a LOT of time. Joined couple hiking/biking clubs and also started to dance zydeco (serous calorie burning and tons of fun). Point being I'm spending a whole lot less time in front of this computer and a lot more out and about. That plus milling wood (milling up a black walnut today as we speak) and keeping my woodshop business going takes all my time. It's working, I lost 27 lbs so far and not stopping till I lose 40. At 55, feel better than I did for years. Some of the now limited time I have on the computer is also now spent on my facebook account which I started mainly for my Three Sisters Woodshop business to be able to show my work, which has paid off since it has generated some sales. Jump on facebook.com and key on [email protected] if you wanna check it out. So... havn't gone anywhere, just getting in shape and spending a lot less time in front of my computer. Thanks again for asking.

 

[BobL]

Thanks for asking Bob... answer: . . . . . So... havn't gone anywhere, just getting in shape and spending a lot less time in front of my computer. Thanks again for asking.

Thanks WS - it sounds exactly like what I need to do, ie lose 40 lb and spend less time in front of a computer. I spend about a 4 hours a day in front of the computer plus about 3 hours a night.
Cheers