Oak tree question

[Sheshovel]

I am a member here ,but I thought I would ask you guys about this large Oak I have on my property.
It is a split with two big boles coming from each side like many of our Oaks are around here.
I noticed that between the Y crotch-(it starts just after the flare.)about 2'.I know that water sets in the crotch of the Yall the time in winter.
I need to dry this out and seal it somehow.to keep rain water from collecting there.
If I don't do something it will rot if it is not already.
I read that the old method of filling with cement is no longer practiced.What material can I use then?Fill it with liquid nails glue?Make a covering of some type?Any ideas? I will take pics tommorrow so you can see it.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Since decay micro-organisms are aerobic for the most part it is good to have a decay pcket full of water. There will be less decay.

 

[Sheshovel]

No kidding?I would have thought the opposite
sitting water+bark =decay

 

[pinus]

That is right, all roting funguses are aerobic and for their growing oxygen is needed. Under water no any fungus can grow and wood is not decaing. At the same time, all funguses are demanding some amount of water (moisture) for the growing. This is the reason why dry wood is not decaying.
Trees are developed many methods and one common method for fighting with funguses. It is the attempt to close any damage of their bark or the spots of dead knots. This has two proposes: closing the points for the potential invasion of funguses and closing the any point through which oxygen can penetrate into trunk and so through which the fungus can breath

 

[treeseer]

Try probing/sounding with a blunt instrument to check for decay. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Most fungi and bacteria are indeed aerobic; look it up!

There was a looonnnng thread on cavity filling with tree machine here. I can see some basis for experimenting with that, but your Y is not a wound or cavity per se so I'd let it be. Let's see the pics!

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Think about all of the wooden docks and pilings for piers. Wood boring critters will do them in but not decay except at the waterline.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

So the vulnerable time would be that period when it's no longer holding puddle, but it's still damp? So if it dries quickly enough, no problem?

 

[pinus]

Residing in in living tree the fungus has always neccessary amount of water, because fungus can get it from living tissues. The more critical point for it is the oxygen source. There are many examples where the infected tree after closing of all damaged points and knot holes is snuffing the fungus in its trunk and will recover from roting
So, the filling and tightening of all crakcs and cavities in tree trunk is advisable

 

[Tom Dunlap]

So, the filling and tightening of all crakcs and cavities in tree trunk is advisable

What??? Is this a typo? Did you mean to write "not advisable"?

How do you propose filling or tighening of ALL cracks and cavities. That isn't possible.

One problem with putting fill materials inside is that the area just under the fill where the decay organisms are preseant will be constantly wet from condensation. That is the PERFECT conditions for decay.

Filling of trees has been out of favr for decades.

 

[pinus]

What??? Is this a typo? Did you mean to write "not advisable"?

How do you propose filling or tighening of ALL cracks and cavities. That isn't possible.

One problem with putting fill materials inside is that the area just under the fill where the decay organisms are preseant will be constantly wet from condensation. That is the PERFECT conditions for decay.

Filling of trees has been out of favr for decades.

No, it wasnt mistake. Of course, we cant fill all cracks. As any can look, all trees are trying to do that itself, as good as they can
Root rot is different case. That kind of funguses are geting oxygen from the soil-ground and the filling of trunk cavity caused by them will not destroy these funguses, but IMO is not bad too, I can be mistaken.
It is important not to mess up funguses!
I dont know about what organisms you speak?
Take for the safe the all this as only my opinion

 

[treeseer]

Tom, I think it's dangerous to base one's thoughts and actions on what is in or out of favor with your colleagues. Something to consider, certainly, but not rely on.

"A New Tree Biology, And to those who adhere to some alleged
Shigovian "gospel" that wounds and cavities should not be messed with, from p. 516: "...you could take the water out, and remove the decayed wood without breaking the boundary, and fill the hole with some nonabrasive materials. Expandable foam... cover the hole with screening...Do not disrupt the callus about the wound."

If you want to debate the concept of filling, take it up with Dr. S. first, since it seems to be "in favor" with him. I think pinus is correct. Of course all this oblique to the point of Sheshovel's Y.

The old yammer on this, minus posts from scalawags who chose to jump ship, are here:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=17805&page=2&pp=15&highlight=NEWTS+cavity+filling

 

[pinus]

Thanks to you, treeser! , for cutting down some high voltages up here
Filling was meant as filling with the inert solid material, and the foams, now available, is probably better solution than was filling with the concrete in earlier days.
And rotted wood should be removed before this as much as possible

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The single biggest thing that determines how well a wound compartmentalizes, is the trees health. A healthy, vigorous, vital, young tree will deal with decay advancement much better than an old, over mature, declining tree.
The best course of action, is to help the general health of the tree by removing stresses. Water during drought, add soil amendments as indicated by a soil test, create better soil conditions by adding compost and mulch beds, and whatever else might help.
I also think a tree with a high foliage to total biomass ratio has advantages, so do not remove any leaves by trimming live branches or reducing the crown to try to make the tree "stronger".
The small difference some cavity filling or painting may, or may not make, is inconsequential in the long run.
There have been several studies that show pruning paint applications do not slow the decay at all, and even speed it slightly in some cases, which should give you all some insight into what cavity filling may do.
The problem with cavity filling, is there is no good way to quantify the results of this type work done on mature trees, so to recommend this work may be unethical in the absence of science.

 

[treeseer]

The single biggest thing that determines how well a wound compartmentalizes, is the trees health. I also think a tree with a high foliage to total biomass ratio has advantages, so do not remove any leaves by trimming live branches or reducing the crown to try to make the tree "stronger".

Mike I agree with you 100%; on a stressed tree no foliage should be removed unless risk is high.

The problem with cavity filling, is there is no good way to quantify the results of this type work done on mature trees, so to recommend this work may be unethical in the absence of science.

I think it is unethical to avoid experimentation that is based on good science just because data is not (and may never be) available.

Hey we're getting closer to agreeing! :angel:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mike I agree with you 100%; on a stressed tree no foliage should be removed unless risk is high. I think it is unethical to avoid experimentation that is based on good science just because data is not (and may never be) available.

The problem is randomly filling cavities won't contribute any science. You need controls, statistical analysis, repetition of nearly identical trees, it's just not possible.
We routinely remove trees that had cavities filled, it has not given me any idea either way, good or bad, whether or not cavity filling does anything. Typically though the fill and rods are laying at the bottom of a cavity now much larger than the original cavity. Did the work speed or slow the decay? I don't have anyway of knowing.

 

[Sheshovel]

Here's some pics,I have more if you want them.

 

[Sheshovel]

I know you guys are gonna say the tree needs work
I.E. crown work.And that it is probably a dangerous
tree the way it is already.This I know.I am going to work on it.But for now what do you think about whats going on in the center?Yes it dries quickly in summer

 

[treeseer]

good pics, nice tree, looks stable. Unless your gentle probing reveals rot I'd let it be. Whisper words of wisdom...

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

The problem is randomly filling cavities won't contribute any science. You need controls, statistical analysis, repetition of nearly identical trees, it's just not possible......

Did the work speed or slow the decay? I don't have anyway of knowing.

Now, THAT'S refreshing! Someone cognizant of the variables and refusing to draw conclusions from insufficient data!

 

[pinus]

Nice pics!
It seems to me that the cavity in the tree center is not the result of something damage or infection and has "health walls" (unbroken bark). I think that such cavities are not very big danger for the tree and rather dont need human intervention.
My previous posts about cavities was based on the asumption that the cavity was result of some fungus infection

May be one possibility is to add something screen over it which will minimize the amount of rainfall reaching the cavity and probably it is good to clear periodically the cavity from dead leaves and other scrap.