Oil tank for splitter

[msjanket]

In designing my new splitter, I came across an ongoing dilemma. Somebody said one of the American CLS splitters had a "too small hydraulic oil tank".
The American is allegedly one of the best built splitters, so why would it have an overly small tank in the first place? Have there been lots of complaints by people who say the oil is overheating and, say, scorching paint on the tank? Wouldn't the manufacturer have reacted to complaints directly?

Mike

 

[triptester]

There is always a discussion about hydraulic reservoir capacity requirements going on but I can't remember anyone saying that they had an overheating problem with a factory setup. Overheating problems tend to show up on non-factory built splitters.

 

[splittah]

I have an American CLS AM25HH splitter, while I am not sure how many gallons my tank is, overheating was a concern of mine and the dealer assured me that I would not overheat this splitter.

Granted I have only put about 6 cord through it so far but I have run this splitter as fast as it will cycle for hours straight with absolutely no issues at all up to this point.

 

[Mike Van]

Not being a guy that wanted to send Northern 100.00 for a tank, I used an old propane gas grill one when I rebuilt my splitter. I probably run it half full of oil. 2 years now, 30+ cord, I don't have any regrets or problems with oil heating.

 

[eric_271]

Home built tank from scrap steel for my splitter. If you have the time and can weld. No torch or good grinders? Take your scrap to a fab shop and have it sheared to your specs.

 

[wireedm]

Home built tank from scrap steel for my splitter. If you have the time and can weld. No torch or good grinders? Take your scrap to a fab shop and have it sheared to your specs.

That is some beautiful fab work! Send us a pic of the finished work too!

 

[kevin j]

working it hard actually splitting doesn't cause heat as the enrgy is going to work.

Heat is pressure drop that isn't actually doing work. i.e. high flow through small lines and hoses is continuous heat, but may not be a big issue.

Biggest heat source is stalling across the RV for a long time. Holding it there trying to get through the tough spot, the entire engine hp is converted to heat across the RV. So minimizing the time spent on RV (operator technique!) makes a big difference how hot it will get.

k

 

[mga]

In designing my new splitter, I came across an ongoing dilemma. Somebody said one of the American CLS splitters had a "too small hydraulic oil tank".
The American is allegedly one of the best built splitters, so why would it have an overly small tank in the first place? Have there been lots of complaints by people who say the oil is overheating and, say, scorching paint on the tank? Wouldn't the manufacturer have reacted to complaints directly?

Mike

go to the northern tool web site and look at their tanks. they give dimensions to give you an idea as to how many gallons you want and how to build one.

however, you also need to put a baffle in the center of it that is only about 3/4 of the height of the tank. cut about 1" off the bottom corners before setting it in the tank. this prevents the oil from "swirling" inside the tank. it makes the oil nice and calm. watch it some time when the splitter is running...it should flow over the top of the baffle smoothly.

your return line should drop into the tank and end about 1" off the bottom of the tank. this keeps the oil from foaming when returning back into the tank so that you won't get bubbles in there.

your suction opening should be 1" or 1.5" off the bottom of the tank. this prevents any materials that settle on the bottom to get sucked in by the pump.

air bubbles and foreign material are the enemy.

 

[highpower]

I have a friend who owns a sheet metal shop and another who has a muffler shop. One fabed my metal the other welded it together. I ordered all the fittings and breather/fill cap from Northern. Total cost was less than $50. I was able to put the suction and retun where I wanted them to fit my splitter instead of where a ready made tank came with them.

 

[kevin j]

/4 of the height of the tank. cut about 1" off the bottom corners before sit should flow over the top of the baffle smoothly.


no, no, this will aerate the oil like a waterfall. The baffles are to control the flow so it doesn't go from return right to suction, to maximixe the holding time in tank and use all the oil volume with no dead spots, and to get RID of air, not put more back in ! They also keep the oil motion near the outside walls to transfer as much heat out as possible. Baffles should either be high enough so the oil routes along one side, turns 180 degrees at the far end and comes back on the other side (not going over the top), or if they are crosswise, clip the bottom corners maybe 3 inches x 3 inches at 45 degrees. You want all the oil going UNDER the baffle corners.

It's tricky as the tanks are so small.

K

 

[eric_271]

That is some beautiful fab work! Send us a pic of the finished work too!

Thanks wire. I should win a blue ribbon for taking the most years to build a splitter. I have to prime and paint the H beam and put it all back together. There are a few pics of it put together while I was still working on it in the splitter pics thread. I will post again in a few weeks when all painted and put back together. I just had surgery for severe carpal tunnel yesterday So the splitter is on hold one last time for a few days.

 

[mga]

/4 of the height of the tank. cut about 1" off the bottom corners before sit should flow over the top of the baffle smoothly.


no, no, this will aerate the oil like a waterfall. The baffles are to control the flow so it doesn't go from return right to suction, to maximixe the holding time in tank and use all the oil volume with no dead spots, and to get RID of air, not put more back in ! They also keep the oil motion near the outside walls to transfer as much heat out as possible. Baffles should either be high enough so the oil routes along one side, turns 180 degrees at the far end and comes back on the other side (not going over the top), or if they are crosswise, clip the bottom corners maybe 3 inches x 3 inches at 45 degrees. You want all the oil going UNDER the baffle corners.

It's tricky as the tanks are so small.

K

i could be wrong, but i got that info from the hydraulics web site.

keeping the tank almost full allows the oil to gently cascade over the baffle. if it gets low, the openings in the bottom corners are to allow the oil to keep flowing.

i'm not disputing your suggestion, it sounds reasonable.

 

[kevin j]

I didn't mean to sound snippy or disagreeable, just that there is a lot of bad info out on the web. PM the site connection and I will check it out.


These two sites are more to industrial stuff, but some info applies to splitters. Single chapters out of larger site information.
HP magazine is a trade design engineering magazine.

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/FPE/Hydraulics/Article/True/6448/Hydraulics


this is the reservoir chapter from Bud T's ebook on basic hydraulics

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/eBooks/Article/True/39340/


both refer to the sizing rules of thumb of 1 or 2 or 3x pump flow. Way out of date, NFPA even acknowledges that. For logsplitters, half of pump flow or larger is fine. More a question of making large enough conductors so heat generation is minimized, then not spending much time going across relief.

kcj

 

[mga]

no problem. here's the link to tank construction:

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/upload/db_documents_doc_10.pdf


this is where i read and learned about hydraulics:

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html

 

[kevin j]

tks, I can see where that is unclear. The 3/4 height means to basically extend up above the waterline, and the clipped corners (or punch big round holes) is where the flow goes from compartment to compartment).
I wrote Brendan suggesting clarify the website. I know his teaching, am sure that is not his intent, but it does imply exactly what you wrote.

Brendan Casey is Australia based, does lot of publishing of books, and has the email newlsetter I have posted before. (Just came today in fact). Knowledgeable guy. His email list is good stuff, more beyond what most people here will need or want, but primarily aimed at diagnositic and servicing mechanics and engineers. Not deep into design, but lot of great day to day useful stuff. Free to sign up. I checked with him last month, he's happy to send out to anyone.

k

 

[mga]

i designed my tank as i wrote it above, or, as i interpreted it to be designed as per his web site. at the time when i was building it, he was about the only web site that offered extensive information. everyone else acted like it was some big trade secret.

anyways.......

i can watch the oil flow inside the tank if i remove the filler cap and, since the oil is kept at a high level, you can barely notice it going over the baffle. it doesn't have a 'waterfall" effect because the oil is kept at a high level.

i'm sure that, if i had a major leak and ignored it, the oil would eventually act as if going over a falls, but that would be a slight temporary situation...under that extreme condition, beacuse the holes at the bottom would also allow the oil to flow. if i ignored a leak that big, i deserve to have the machine burn out.

again, i'm not critisizing nor challenging your experience in any way. i just stated how i made mine and where i got the idea from. your suggestion does make sense, but we are just talking about log splitters here...right?

 

[Old_School_Nut]

Brendan Casey is Australia based, does lot of publishing of books, and has the email newlsetter I have posted before. (Just came today in fact). Knowledgeable guy. His email list is good stuff, more beyond what most people here will need or want, but primarily aimed at diagnositic and servicing mechanics and engineers. Not deep into design, but lot of great day to day useful stuff. Free to sign up. I checked with him last month, he's happy to send out to anyone.

k

can you PM me a link to get this newletter?

thanks

 

[kevin j]

OSN
http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/


mga
definitely not rocket science, it should work just fine a long time! just keep the oil level up for two reasons: 1. don't want it aerating, and 2. also any low level will all show up in that last compartment by the suction end. i.e if the whole tank was 2 inches low at rest, once it is running, the first compartment will fill up to the baffle level and the last one will be 4 inches low. Just need to keep it above suction.

Most of the web stuff is written around industrial or mobile equpment, very little about simple stuff like this. I mean, people use milk cans and LP tanks and they work.

i don't mean to make it into secret voodoo, or be critical in any way of anyone out there. and all the systems usually work. I just try to explain more in teaching the many people who read but don't post, more than just in solving the question specifically from the poster. Try to convey why, rather than just recipe card solutions.....so the boards don't get the same basic q's over and over, but that people learn to solve their own unique questions.

There are some really nice mechanical machines becasue so many people can do the mechanics, but the hydraulics are unknowns. Not so easily visualized.

It doesn't get much simpler than a gear pump, manual valve, and cylinder, yet such simple systems are still humbling.

k

 

[cabinman]

Pump over tank

I didn't mean to sound snippy or disagreeable, just that there is a lot of bad info out on the web. PM the site connection and I will check it out.


These two sites are more to industrial stuff, but some info applies to splitters. Single chapters out of larger site information.
HP magazine is a trade design engineering magazine.

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/FPE/Hydraulics/Article/True/6448/Hydraulics


this is the reservoir chapter from Bud T's ebook on basic hydraulics

http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/eBooks/Article/True/39340/


both refer to the sizing rules of thumb of 1 or 2 or 3x pump flow. Way out of date, NFPA even acknowledges that. For logsplitters, half of pump flow or larger is fine. More a question of making large enough conductors so heat generation is minimized, then not spending much time going across relief.

kcj

KJ,..Theres no question that the pump below oil leval is going to supply oil to the pump with less effort than the pump above the oil leval,..But I Have at least 20 Industerial (GM) Factory speced hydraulic power supply units,..3hp -30 hp units,..I have 3 cincinatti millicron hydraulic robots with all the hydraulic componets, long story short EVERY SINGLE ONE of these power units have the pump mounted on top of the tank,.The cincinatti millicron robot units are the (finist ever built) to my knowledge,. so MY question is??, after reading the recomended, best,..pump location on the HYDAC, web posting,..It seems like a PREMEIR robot company like cincinatti milicron, has a reason to disagree, with HYDAC,.Iam not a hyd engineer, But have 10s of thousands of dollors in hyd equipment, and not 1 of them pay any regard to the pump location, being critical to the exact level of the oil in the tank,..The robots are key as far as Iam concerned, The are rated @ 250 lbs, with a .010 thousands repetability,.and cost $125.000 when new,.. U are a real sharp guy concerning hydraulics, so why dont people like robot companys use HYDACS hyd tank recomdations and pump locations?? I cant post pics on here yet but If you send me your email add Ill send u some pics of the robots, Iam curious,. Thanks Eric

 

[mga]

KJ,..Theres no question that the pump below oil leval is going to supply oil to the pump with less effort than the pump above the oil leval,..But I Have at least 20 Industerial (GM) Factory speced hydraulic power supply units,..3hp -30 hp units,..I have 3 cincinatti millicron hydraulic robots with all the hydraulic componets, long story short EVERY SINGLE ONE of these power units have the pump mounted on top of the tank,.The cincinatti millicron robot units are the (finist ever built) to my knowledge,. so MY question is??, after reading the recomended, best,..pump location on the HYDAC, web posting,..It seems like a PREMEIR robot company like cincinatti milicron, has a reason to disagree, with HYDAC,.Iam not a hyd engineer, But have 10s of thousands of dollors in hyd equipment, and not 1 of them pay any regard to the pump location, being critical to the exact level of the oil in the tank,..The robots are key as far as Iam concerned, The are rated @ 250 lbs, with a .010 thousands repetability,.and cost $125.000 when new,.. U are a real sharp guy concerning hydraulics, so why dont people like robot companys use HYDACS hyd tank recomdations and pump locations?? I cant post pics on here yet but If you send me your email add Ill send u some pics of the robots, Iam curious,. Thanks Eric

i believe your talking about a whole different animal here than a simple log splitter. the machines you describe, being much more complex, have numerous controls, check valves, etc and most likely all the components are located above the pump, ensuring that the oil has no chance to siphon back into the tank.

on something like a log splitter, it's always a good idea to keep the pump equal to or lower than the tank. "dry" runs are the number one killer of pumps.