MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
I would say I'm kinda like a mirror, but my pipes are down....
OK.....Let's Get Into The Meat Of SRT !!!!
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John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I don't think it is a lack of respect with most people. It is that when we are new to this we don't realize that the words are the only thing that comes across and cann be interpreted differently then we intended.
There are not those indicators of tone and body that we use while face to face that allows what we intend as a jocular comment to be interpreted as petty jab.
As Tom has often pointed out, petty remarks go away when ignored. Responding in kind will lead to the obnoxiouse tit for tat things we can get.
If people would take a moment and look at critical remamrks and ask, "How would i react to this towards me?" we would have a lot less of this.
Though this would not work on Butch, he just laughs it all off
SO to wind things down, We what we would like to see is constructive critisism and less posting that boil down to "B-S!"
There are not those indicators of tone and body that we use while face to face that allows what we intend as a jocular comment to be interpreted as petty jab.
As Tom has often pointed out, petty remarks go away when ignored. Responding in kind will lead to the obnoxiouse tit for tat things we can get.
If people would take a moment and look at critical remamrks and ask, "How would i react to this towards me?" we would have a lot less of this.
Though this would not work on Butch, he just laughs it all off
SO to wind things down, We what we would like to see is constructive critisism and less posting that boil down to "B-S!"
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Moving on.
Tom, working any tree where the movements are up and down, do you find body thrusting several feet difficult? On DbRT half of your weight is displaced at you TIP, so you are only pulling 1/2 of your weight. Also, when body thrusting DbRT you are actually pulling yourself up, whereas with SRT you are pulling yourself like climbing a firepole. How did you address this? Thanx, Rich.
Tom, working any tree where the movements are up and down, do you find body thrusting several feet difficult? On DbRT half of your weight is displaced at you TIP, so you are only pulling 1/2 of your weight. Also, when body thrusting DbRT you are actually pulling yourself up, whereas with SRT you are pulling yourself like climbing a firepole. How did you address this? Thanx, Rich.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tom, you raised a good point about the rescue. If you were lanyarded in, and became disabled, I could footlock up to you on your own line, let a bit of slack into your flipline, then Butch could lower us to the ground. That's super quick!
love
nick
love
nick
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Rich,
If there is an Achilles heal in working SRT, you hit it. Moving up using an I'd isn't easy. The first part of the solution is to plan several moves ahead. IN SRT it requires that the climber do more planning. If not, the gains will be lost by having to move up.
When I do have to move up a free hanging rope I use some variation on RADS:
http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/news02-02/highlight.html
The next time I climb I'll be using a Wild Country Hand for the upper ascender and then I'll clip in a plain oval biner into the eye. Petzl makes an orange plastic sheave that's meant to make a simple pulley. The reason I'm planning on using this setup is that it is really compact. When I played with it in the garage, the Hand moved up really smooth. Look on Storrrick's site to see what a Hand looks like. They're not made anymore though.
Setting up the RADS does pay off though. If I set it up and leave it in place it becomes a floating false crotch of sorts. I'll leave it in place if I plan no doing several yo yos. I suppose I could use a throwline for a retriever if I didn't want to go back up to get the RADS.
Understand that the RADS uses up another long chunk of rope. If you don't plan ahead you could run out of rope when you get low in the tree. That would mean labandoning the RADS or going back up to retrieve. To get around this, I bring it down as I work the canopy {I sure do like typing that ] down in layers.
Tom
If there is an Achilles heal in working SRT, you hit it. Moving up using an I'd isn't easy. The first part of the solution is to plan several moves ahead. IN SRT it requires that the climber do more planning. If not, the gains will be lost by having to move up.
When I do have to move up a free hanging rope I use some variation on RADS:
http://www.rescueresponse.com/html/news02-02/highlight.html
The next time I climb I'll be using a Wild Country Hand for the upper ascender and then I'll clip in a plain oval biner into the eye. Petzl makes an orange plastic sheave that's meant to make a simple pulley. The reason I'm planning on using this setup is that it is really compact. When I played with it in the garage, the Hand moved up really smooth. Look on Storrrick's site to see what a Hand looks like. They're not made anymore though.
Setting up the RADS does pay off though. If I set it up and leave it in place it becomes a floating false crotch of sorts. I'll leave it in place if I plan no doing several yo yos. I suppose I could use a throwline for a retriever if I didn't want to go back up to get the RADS.
Understand that the RADS uses up another long chunk of rope. If you don't plan ahead you could run out of rope when you get low in the tree. That would mean labandoning the RADS or going back up to retrieve. To get around this, I bring it down as I work the canopy {I sure do like typing that
] down in layers.Tom
Lumberjack
Banned
I tried out my i'D today, and I must say that I like it. It was a small rec climb, no working, but it was fun.
After a minimal amount of thought, here is what I came up with for my Rads (does that stand for something?), using stuff I already had. It has a 3:1, and for people that normally do DbRT, it should be easier because of the 3:1, and more natural. I bodythrusted up the tree several times, and it wasn't nere as fast as SRT, but if you had a good groundie, you might be able to get as fast or faster than SRT, once you get the rythm. It will make yo-yoing much easier. I tried it with the Pantin, but didn't like that. Tomorrow I might try footlocking, as that would probably be the fastest.
I like the setup very well, and it will become my normal setup. If your rope was long enough, you could come down for lunch (in a huge tree, or if you started late) and go back up almost as easy as an elevator, if you had a groundie, it would be awsome.
Here is the pic.
Carl
After a minimal amount of thought, here is what I came up with for my Rads (does that stand for something?), using stuff I already had. It has a 3:1, and for people that normally do DbRT, it should be easier because of the 3:1, and more natural. I bodythrusted up the tree several times, and it wasn't nere as fast as SRT, but if you had a good groundie, you might be able to get as fast or faster than SRT, once you get the rythm. It will make yo-yoing much easier. I tried it with the Pantin, but didn't like that. Tomorrow I might try footlocking, as that would probably be the fastest.
I like the setup very well, and it will become my normal setup. If your rope was long enough, you could come down for lunch (in a huge tree, or if you started late) and go back up almost as easy as an elevator, if you had a groundie, it would be awsome.
Here is the pic.
Carl
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
RADS
R-ope
A-ascending
D-escending
S-sytem
That looks nice!
Tom
R-ope
A-ascending
D-escending
S-sytem
That looks nice!
Tom
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Simplify
Guys, I have to say my head spins when I read all your stuff. I've been doing SRT since I came into this profession 10 years ago. I've done SRT all kinds of different ways, different nuances of established technique, different rope diameters, a variety of devices. I have never gone up using a RAD system. A variation of it going down, yes, occasionally.
Rich mentions body thrusting. I thought that was a technique you use in a pinch, like when the rope you're about to ascend is 5 feet off the ground, you body thrust until you've got rope at your feet.
I see you guys trying to set up ascent systems using descent / belay devices. That's novel, I will admit, but still, you're sanding against the grain. You'll get up the tree, but using a 2:1, or worse, 3:1 ??? That's pulling a lot of rope to advance yourself slowly. I guess if your feet are hanging in space, doing nothing, that would suffice.
Does anyone just put a backed-up ascender on the rope and footlock up??? You're allowed to swap to a descending device once you get up top. Granted you'll have to clip the ascender on to your saddle and carry it on your hip until you need to ascend again, but honestly, it's not such a big thing. Been doing it for years.
The more complicated you make SRT, the less likely guys are going to be willing to try it. You can be very safe, and swift, and efficient without making SRT a full-blown rigging operation -TM-
Guys, I have to say my head spins when I read all your stuff. I've been doing SRT since I came into this profession 10 years ago. I've done SRT all kinds of different ways, different nuances of established technique, different rope diameters, a variety of devices. I have never gone up using a RAD system. A variation of it going down, yes, occasionally.
Rich mentions body thrusting. I thought that was a technique you use in a pinch, like when the rope you're about to ascend is 5 feet off the ground, you body thrust until you've got rope at your feet.
I see you guys trying to set up ascent systems using descent / belay devices. That's novel, I will admit, but still, you're sanding against the grain. You'll get up the tree, but using a 2:1, or worse, 3:1 ??? That's pulling a lot of rope to advance yourself slowly. I guess if your feet are hanging in space, doing nothing, that would suffice.
Does anyone just put a backed-up ascender on the rope and footlock up??? You're allowed to swap to a descending device once you get up top. Granted you'll have to clip the ascender on to your saddle and carry it on your hip until you need to ascend again, but honestly, it's not such a big thing. Been doing it for years.
The more complicated you make SRT, the less likely guys are going to be willing to try it. You can be very safe, and swift, and efficient without making SRT a full-blown rigging operation -TM-
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tm,
Remind me, what do you use for descent?
Sure, clipping an ascender with a lanyard above you would work. Simple. Very. That's if you have a place for your feet to climb. How do you move up the rope when it's free hanging, out in the air? I haven't seen a way to do that.
I could see a system where you used a long lanyard on the ascener and did an inchworm climb. But after every hitch up the rope you should/would have to take up the candy cane above your descender.
Unless I'm having one of my thick-headed moments and missing something obvious.
Tom
Remind me, what do you use for descent?
Sure, clipping an ascender with a lanyard above you would work. Simple. Very. That's if you have a place for your feet to climb. How do you move up the rope when it's free hanging, out in the air? I haven't seen a way to do that.
I could see a system where you used a long lanyard on the ascener and did an inchworm climb. But after every hitch up the rope you should/would have to take up the candy cane above your descender.
Unless I'm having one of my thick-headed moments and missing something obvious.
Tom
Lumberjack
Banned
Re: Simplify
I think that you missed the point. The rads is only for yo-yoing, not ascending. I did use it today to ascend, but that was to try it out. Normally, I use a Cmi closed shell ascender, and a pantin. Then I switch over to the 8 with a backup, and work down. The rads wouldn't be neccesary on removals, only trims where you might need to yo-yo some to get the job done. The Rads is plain as dirt. I use the ascender for the top, with a biner and a micropulley. I just got the i'D and I think that it was a good move, but I haven't gotten to work on it yet tho.
On small ascents, it may turn out that I RADS it up, and work down. The way I see using my RADS is on trims. In case you didn't know , you can't footlock through the i'D, so it is either body thrust (that would kill you) or RADS, and the 3:1 is the easyist to set up when using the i'D.
How would you recommend yo-yoing on trims?
Carl
Originally posted by Tree Machine
Guys, I have to say my head spins when I read all your stuff. I've been doing SRT since I came into this profession 10 years ago. I've done SRT all kinds of different ways, different nuances of established technique, different rope diameters, a variety of devices. I have never gone up using a RAD system. A variation of it going down, yes, occasionally.
Rich mentions body thrusting. I thought that was a technique you use in a pinch, like when the rope you're about to ascend is 5 feet off the ground, you body thrust until you've got rope at your feet.
I see you guys trying to set up ascent systems using descent / belay devices. That's novel, I will admit, but still, you're sanding against the grain. You'll get up the tree, but using a 2:1, or worse, 3:1 ??? That's pulling a lot of rope to advance yourself slowly. I guess if your feet are hanging in space, doing nothing, that would suffice.
Does anyone just put a backed-up ascender on the rope and footlock up??? You're allowed to swap to a descending device once you get up top. Granted you'll have to clip the ascender on to your saddle and carry it on your hip until you need to ascend again, but honestly, it's not such a big thing. Been doing it for years.
The more complicated you make SRT, the less likely guys are going to be willing to try it. You can be very safe, and swift, and efficient without making SRT a full-blown rigging operation -TM-
I think that you missed the point. The rads is only for yo-yoing, not ascending. I did use it today to ascend, but that was to try it out. Normally, I use a Cmi closed shell ascender, and a pantin. Then I switch over to the 8 with a backup, and work down. The rads wouldn't be neccesary on removals, only trims where you might need to yo-yo some to get the job done. The Rads is plain as dirt. I use the ascender for the top, with a biner and a micropulley. I just got the i'D and I think that it was a good move, but I haven't gotten to work on it yet tho.
On small ascents, it may turn out that I RADS it up, and work down. The way I see using my RADS is on trims. In case you didn't know , you can't footlock through the i'D, so it is either body thrust (that would kill you) or RADS, and the 3:1 is the easyist to set up when using the i'D.
How would you recommend yo-yoing on trims?
Carl
Lumberjack
Banned
Hey Tom, where you talking about RADS for rope ascention from the ground? I don't think that RADS will ever take the place of my ascender and pantin, because of its speed. When I get to the top of where I have to work, I think then I will go over to the i'D, and work comming down. The way I invisioned using Rads, wasn't as a normal setup, but as a option for when I need to go up 20-30 foot while I am working in the tree. From the sounds of it you are talking about always using RADS when you are working.
If that is what you are saying, then, I think I might have missed somthing.
If you are saying that you are using it like what I am thinking then ignore this post.
Just wondering.
Carl
If that is what you are saying, then, I think I might have missed somthing.
If you are saying that you are using it like what I am thinking then ignore this post.
Just wondering.
Carl
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Re: Re: Simplify
Any major trimwork is going to require up and down movement. I cannot see anyone pruning a White Oak with a big canopy from the top down only. Even if you work the tree in quarters and change your TIP.
Any major trimwork is going to require up and down movement. I cannot see anyone pruning a White Oak with a big canopy from the top down only. Even if you work the tree in quarters and change your TIP.
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Man, I know I said my pipes were down, BUT Geez-Louise!!!
Ya'll are taking the SIMPLE ART of 'A Boy and His Rope' and turning it into a gear-headed, Rocket Scientist sorta thing.
Just gimme my gear(minimal!), and show me the tree.
My motto; Minimal Metal Up the Tree.
Ahhh, I gots lots'a mottos!
Ya'll are taking the SIMPLE ART of 'A Boy and His Rope' and turning it into a gear-headed, Rocket Scientist sorta thing.
Just gimme my gear(minimal!), and show me the tree.
My motto; Minimal Metal Up the Tree.
Ahhh, I gots lots'a mottos!
Lumberjack
Banned
Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
I'm gonna have to drive to MS and show you how to climb a tree.
I would like that, or mabye when I take the ISA Cert test in March I could stop by.
The way I see using my setup of SRT is when ascending, or working from the bottom up, using an ascender, and the pantin. When I am working top down, I will use the i'D after I get to the top. When I need to go up and down, I will set up the RADS, and use it to ascend like DbRT, as the only additional gear needed is a micro pulley (which is optional). I will already have the ascender and the micro pulley does't take up that much room.
That way I get the benifits of both systems,
easy set up, no isolating
fast ascention using SRT
working down SRT super easy
yoyoing DbRT, while still using the 1st TIP
I think that this might be the compromise that makes both sides (or methods) better.
The more I think about it, the better it sounds.
Removals don't normally need yoyoing, and trims do, but most of the time isolating the limb is a batch ( I would guess)
Does anyone else see the compromise/ merger of the two methods.
Carl
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Yo-yoing, meaning descending, and then going back up? Well, descend on any descent device that you're comfortable with. Ascend? Slip your ascender on and footlock back up.
I could go into the detail of how that's done, but my effort here is not to belittle anyone's intelligence.
I yo-yoed all afternoon today in a sizable red oak. Limb walk out, drop through a natural crotch, abseil down, do my work, ascend back up. Is that an example of yo-yoing, or is that simply going up and down within a tree's crown?
If you have a place for your feet to climb? How do I move up the rope when it's free-hanging?? Y'mean like EVERY time I do a vertical rope ascent. I think it's called footlocking.... for the more gear-minded, you may want to use a Pantin, or an even simpler system like what my wife uses in vertical caving, something similar to a mar-bar.
Please tell me if simplicity is bad. Footlocking up a free-hanging rope using a backed-up ascender, as rudimentary as it may be, will get you on-rope and up-rope quickly, easily, simply. Am I out of line here? -TM-
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With all due respect.
What do you do when a removal has limbs out over a pool or the house?
Simply saying that most removals don't need, as you call it, yoyoing IMO is a little narrow.
All this switching from one device to another, when my DbRT system doesn't change at all, seems like to much hardware. After stripping down my saddle, the minimal approach is refreshing.
In responce to Brian's comment, to see a really good climber do his work DbRT is really something to watch. Attending a climbing jamboree will prove that!
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying this discussion. That is why I started this thread!
Lumberjack
Banned
What do you use to decend?
I would think that swaping on and off the ascender would get old, but that is just me. With RADS you can leave it set up if you are gonna do alot of yoyos, or leave it on your side (ascender and micropulley) until you need it.
I do the same as you on ascention (pantin) and normaly work down on a backed up eight (until I got the i'D). I couldn't see swaping over to the ascention system ever time you needed to go up 5 foot.
I think that your simplicity is great, it is what I do.
Carl
MasterBlaster
TreeHouse Elder
Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
ummmm.... Traditional DdRT?
I'm gonna have to drive to MS and show you how to climb a tree.
Lemee know, Brian. I'll bring my lawn chair, and a digcam.
Lumberjack
Banned
I was thinking about a simple removal where the limbs could be butt tied and roped down.
After I get to the top, there will be no swaping of gear, just when I need to go back up clip the ascender and micropulley in the rope above me, slip the tail of the rope through the pulley, and up I do DbRT style.
Really aint very complicated.
Carl
Lumberjack
Banned
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Lemee know, Brian. I'll bring my lawn chair, and a digcam.
You had better use mine, so we can see what the picture is about
. When are you gonna open the purse strings and get you a PowerShot G2 or 3 like mine?Carl
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