PHYSICS to correct a poor previous (no gain) Muffler Mod in a OEM muffler.

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Bingo..along with how much time are you willing to spend...I'm still doing exactly that right down to the electrical conduit! It's a long evolutionary process and part of the on going fun of this hobby. AND don't forget adding lots of the following to make certain you have a practical solution....love those front exit mods that work at GTG's but just get stuffed in the woods.
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I think those big square holes are just so they can check the piston whenever they want with a flashlight. :msp_biggrin: Your Mufflers look just like mine. I use that same angle, when you tip the saw for felling it's not blowing in your face.
 
No physics here,

air OUT.



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What i did the first time:
The OEM muffler did not have any baffles or catalytic converter. The OEM stock hole (round) diameter was 0.213 inches, and did looked very small once the screen was removed. Then i drilled two @ 3/16ths inch holes beside the original stock exit hole. Re-tuned the saw many times as i was cutting, using two tankfuls of fuel. Plastic from the saw case cover was melting, and so were my hands from the heat.

I don't understand this. Did you drill holes in the top of the deflector, or just remove the deflector? The deflector is there for a reason! Seems we discussed this before, but don't know.
 
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for the masses:
which one of these examples do you think would be a better choice for a SAME un-ported, max factory RPM 12,500 saw?

Example A.
stock. no muffler changes. single stock muffler exit hole diameter of 0.213 inches. (approx. a hair larger than 3/16") with muffler frequency of 1414.399Hz.

Example B.
muffler modded: single hole enlarged to 0.75" (3/4")
stinger pipe added of 0.125" (1/8")
muffler frequency of 1410.678Hz

Example C.
muffler modded: single hole enlarged to 2 inches
stinger pipe added of 0.875" (7/8")
muffler frequency of 1421.831Hz

*Note: the small changes in in frequency between the 3 examples above is negligible. striving to get all examples above to equal. this is as close to equal that i could muster.

Which example would make the most power after re-tuning carb to 12,500 RPM?
Which example do you think would give the most reflected positive waves back into the exhaust port?

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sunfish:
to be fair, as i wrote in post#1
in my case, when the holes under the deflector, are larger than the deflector..... had to weld them over with shim sheet steel......then put a large new hole on the side face of muffler.
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for the masses:
which one of these examples do you think would be a better choice for a SAME un-ported, max factory RPM 12,500 saw?

Example A.
stock.

Example B.
muffler modded: (3/4") pipe added

Example C.
muffler modded: 2 inches pipe added

Which example would make the most power after re-tuning carb to 12,500 RPM?
Which example do you think would give the most reflected positive waves back into the exhaust port?



I vote for the 3/4 pipe.

12.5K out of the wood means nothing, I want to see it gain rpm in the wood.

I don't think any will reflect waves back. A muffler is just a pressure can, nothing more.

I went back and re-read the first post in this thread. You drilled two 3/16 holes beside the original and then covered them up. Then opened up the original outlet in the muffler. How big did you make it? anywhere near 3/4"?
 
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both.

+ wave reaching the muffler exit hole opening turns (-). not beneficial but, this can't be helped or changed as far as i know. this effect is present on all exhaust systems.

Incredibly beneficial...the negative wave helps a lot with scavenging. The problem is that it helps so much, that it pulls out charge as well. THAT is the advantage of the positive pressure wave in a tuned pipe. If the timing is right it pushes the charge back in before the port closes, in effect "supercharging" the system.


The negative wave is produced in a pipe when it reaches an opening, so the first neg pressure wave will occur when it enters the muffler. The hole in the muffler is a restriction, not an expansion, and so the remaining positive pressure wave will not change sign to negative.


+ wave stays positive as it reflects from muffler wall to stuff more of the fuel mix back in.

If you aren't pulling charge into the exhaust, then a positive pressure wave will do more harm than good.


disagree with portion of your last sentence about reflection.

"a flat plate could do the same job (*as a reflective cone), but the wave duration would be so short that this would only occur over a very narrow RPM range".

-Bell
page 78

Bell is referring to a flat terminus to a round pipe, with some way of channeling the wave back to the port. This does not apply to the box muffler.



distance.
the distance to reflect the wave back is set by the muffler back wall. it is what it is.

Indeed. Have you calculated the distances you need to actually make the waves work? You don't even need to do the math...just use the search to find pictures of a tuned pipe. You simply are going to run out of room.

timing.
trying to improve on this, is what this thread is all about. even though it is a very small wave duration (ala Bell), it expands into a muffler whose volume is 9.04 times greater than the single 40.8cc exhaust pulse. a damping effect occurs, by the 8 previous exhaust gas pulses still inside from the previous strokes.

Is damping what you are after?
 
Husqvarna 340E, well there's the problem.

Drill a big hole and make an adjustable partition. Use more tanks of fuel while making minute adjustments until you have found what you are looking for.

No math on Christmas.
 
Husqvarna 340E, well there's the problem.

Drill a big hole and make an adjustable partition. Use more tanks of fuel while making minute adjustments until you have found what you are looking for.

No math on Christmas.

yes sir. the way drag pipes are tuned on a dyno. holding the shank of a screwdriver, or bolt across the outlet end(s) of a pipe(s) during a run. differing diameters give differing results. when the ideal diameter is found, we just drilled the stainless steel bolt (with a stack of washers if necessary), through the end of the pipe put a nut on it, peened it, done.

for a box muffler with a stinger pipe attached, it would be as simple as drilling a hole through the stinger pipe and trying different diameter bolts. mocking up an adjustable throttle plate within the stinger end, could be another way.

through trial and error, there will most likely be, a best case scenario for the each motor/muffler combination.
 
If you are going to talk math, physics, and theory, you are always going to get people jumping in and telling you "just cut with it", "I've always done X or Y and my saw has never blown up", or, my personal favorite, "it's just a pump".

Happens to me all the time.

No need to run off...I'm still trying to figure out what you are trying to accomplish.
 
thought it would be simpler to keep it in one spot is all. that kind of thing is always possible with just about any topic on this site. hahaha. as it should be.

Almost all of my references do not designate in relation to + or (-) waves. Bell's work does. In relation to a wave reflecting of a surface, (ala Bell), do not remember a designation associated to it.

From your response edisto, i realize that we are indeed talking about the same thing, waves of air columns in pipes. One pipe with 2 open ends, and another pipe with one open and one closed end. My response of 'both' was directed by reasoning that the system operates for a period of two 'open pipes', then due to the piston movement, closes the port, it becomes a two @ 'one end closed one end opened' pipes. The second pipe is actually the muffler being a 'resonator.'

equated the reflected +wave in my initial response, as to the supercharging effect, reasoning that it remains in phase during the bounce off the far wall, before entering back into Exh. port. see now that that is incorrect.

From what i have gathered, the resonator (muffler) wants to default to its single resonant frequency. As extra exhaust is pushed into it, and then released, the pressure will drive it out. Since, the incoming exhaust charge is of higher pressure than contained inside the muffler, the exhaust will overshoot out of the muffler exit hole and produce a slight vacuum inside the muffler. At this point the exhaust gasses remaining in the muffler will oscillate into and out of the exit hole at the muffler's frequency.
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Pressure remains an unsolvable variable at least for me mathematically.

Working on an visual estimate of how it effects the muffler damping by 3D graphing, 3 mufflers tuned to the same frequency, using the same muffler volume, but with differing area values of exit holes, and stinger pipe lengths. Much like i did for the examples A, B, C earlier in the thread. Maybe there is a pattern trend line when graphed against vs. frequency then again vs RPM.

My guess is difference between Examples A, B and C is related to exhaust pressure and damping, with frequency remaining the same.
 
Timberwolf had some graphs he made of the transfer velocities. The graphs showed the velocities through the transfers from the time of opening to the time of closing. The graphs were done at peak horsepower.

The graphs showed an initial back flow into the transfers upon opening, this was due to residual cylinder pressure (the reason for the need of adequate blowdown). The graphs then reversed and started flowing into the cylinder. Surprisingly, most of the transfer flow occurred before BDC.

On one of the graphs there was an anomoly. The tranfer ports closest to the exhaust port showed a reverse flow prior to closing, with the intake side transfer still flowing into the cylinder. Normally, the transfers do not reverse flow towards the end of their open period unless the rpm is below the maximum delivery ratio (max torque). What was surmised was that there was a positive wave being reflected back from the front of the muffler which caused the reverse flow.

It would be possible to tune the arrival of that positive wave by delaying it until the transfers finished, then to pack the cylinder prior to closing. However, that short hit of pressure would only be usable over a very short rpm range, at other rpms the wave would be working against the engine. It was an interesting phenomena, but of little use for a wood saw which requires a broad powerband.
 
After reading the first page of this thread I felt that i had to reply. I've since washed the glaze from my eyes.

You are taking all the fun out of muffler mods.

I think I need to stick to the firewood forum.
 
Almost all of my references do not designate in relation to + or (-) waves. Bell's work does. In relation to a wave reflecting of a surface, (ala Bell), do not remember a designation associated to it.

Forgive me if I am repeating something you already know...I just want to make sure we are on the same page. When the exhaust port is opened, a positive pressure wave is produced. If this wave encounters the open end of a pipe, a portion of that wave changes sign, and a portion continues on as positive pressure.

A simple open pipe produces a strong negative wave, but the duration is too short to be useful. Having a cone at the end stretches out the duration of the negative wave, at the expense of the strength.

If the negative wave returns at the right time, it can greatly assist with scavenging when the pressure inside the cylinder is low. Assisting too much draws charge into the exhaust at the same time velocity from the transfers is decreasing, resulting in less charge density in the cylinder.

The solution is to have the remaining positive wave reflect back, which it will do when it hits a constriction in the pipe. Again, a cone can stretch out the duration at the expense of intensity. If this wave returns just prior to the exhaust port closing, it can force charge back into the cylinder. If the exhaust is not long enough, however, the positive wave returns too early, and interferes with scavenging.

From what i have gathered, the resonator (muffler) wants to default to its single resonant frequency. As extra exhaust is pushed into it, and then released, the pressure will drive it out. Since, the incoming exhaust charge is of higher pressure than contained inside the muffler, the exhaust will overshoot out of the muffler exit hole and produce a slight vacuum inside the muffler. At this point the exhaust gasses remaining in the muffler will oscillate into and out of the exit hole at the muffler's frequency.

The exit hole in the exhaust, or a stinger, is not involved in tuning, but rather acts as a resistor to produce back pressure. This back pressure also works to prevent too much charge from being drawn through the exhaust port. The "vacuum" you envision is actually an increase in pressure.

Pressure remains an unsolvable variable at least for me mathematically.

It isn't the only unsolvable variable. The math to determine tuned length only works for pipes. If, say on a motorcycle, you flatten one side to make clearance for the frame, the muffler will be pretty much useless.

Even working with pipes, the math will only be an approximation, and you still will be left with "cut and try".

Working on an visual estimate of how it effects the muffler damping by 3D graphing, 3 mufflers tuned to the same frequency, using the same muffler volume, but with differing area values of exit holes, and stinger pipe lengths. Much like i did for the examples A, B, C earlier in the thread. Maybe there is a pattern trend line when graphed against vs. frequency then again vs RPM.

The differences you will see will likely be due to striking a balance between creating the right amount of back pressure and restricting flow, rather than wave action.
 
I don't know how you could expect to tune a complex and somewhat randomly shaped cavity like that. Heck the outlet is on a surface at a 90 degree angle from the port opening. You're going to get multiple reflections bouncing around in there from various surfaces at various rpms. Once you go through a change in cross section you've already got reflections, I seriously doubt the outlet will matter. What is the strategy anyway - scavenging? No way you can "tune" a randomly shaped box to scavenge in a useful way. The best you could do is calculate the resonant frequency of the cavity based on it's volume - but what happens when you try to drive it at that frequency? .

The essential point is that the muffler was designed to be a MUFFLER - that means it's purpose is to reduce sound levels by smoothing out the pulses and and preventing strong single frequency sounds from getting out. Now you want to tune it to boost a particular rpm range? Good luck calculating that. Also, a resonance tuned engine often sacrifices power at other rpms.
 

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