Please advise on Stihl “Frankensaw”

[Ocala]

Hi everyone. I’ll start by saying I made a stupid move, so save you all the trouble of reminding me… lol

I impulsively bought what I thought was a Stihl 044 Magnum. The guy I bought it from did start it and cut through a 20” log in front of me.

The saw looked really tired but it did run, and I ran an 045 super years ago, so in a moment of nostalgia I bought it.

This was about 2 weeks ago. I ran it for about 15 minutes working at my home. It died and hadn’t started since.

I have bought a new filter, handle/tank and all shrouds before this happened, with the idea of going through the saw mechanically and aesthetically.

I tried new filter and plug and still couldn’t start it. I dropped it off at the Stihl service locally and was informed that the saw is “tired”, and needs a new jug and piston, along with possibly a coil, and estimated it would cost about $700.

They also told me it’s not an 044, but an MS-440.

Of course the handle has a sticker that says 044, but the part number on the bottom indicates the handle is for an MS-460.

I’ve also included a photo of the serial number.

Can anyone confirm this is an MS-440?

Also, can you guys tell me if any of these parts are interchangeable, and what kind of piston and cylinder I need?

I plan to carefully rebuild that much of this myself if it’s possible and the parts aren’t crazy expensive.

I’m including a lot of pictures to use as clues in this mystery and really appreciate any and all advice you all can provide.

The new filter mount was put in by me, and although bought as an 044 part it fit perfectly. I’m not sure as to the interchangeability of parts between the 044 and 440…

I’m tying to upload a video of it running. I might upload them to YouTube and put in a link.

I picking up the saw from the shop with today or tomorrow. Any other pictures or information that would help please let me know and I’ll put it up.

Thanks again

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

Okay, so you got duped in the secondhand saw market- won't be the first, wont be the last and it has probably happened to most of us in some way or form over time.

Looks like you have a 440 crankcase with an 044 tank- about the only real difference between the two is the 440 has flippy tank caps and the 044 has screw in type.

Parts (genuine Stihl ones) do sneak into the prohibitive dear ones- but price a new Meteor top end for the 044/440 or at the lowest end of the scale a Hyway one- don't get a $20 fleabay one and hope to have the original performance, quality or longevity.

Worth fixing up, but first see if your conrod and crank are in good condition and you might have to split cases to start with a main crank bearings up rebuild.

 

[Ocala]

https://youtu.be/HdX0L5PRIJg

This is the saw running at the time I bought it 2 weeks ago, it wasn't used at all between this video, and when it died after 15 minutes of cutting. It was never really easy to start.

 

[Ocala]

Okay, so you got duped in the secondhand saw market- won't be the first, wont be the last and it has probably happened to most of us in some way or form over time.

Looks like you have a 440 crankcase with an 044 tank- about the only real difference between the two is the 440 has flippy tank caps and the 044 has screw in type.

Parts (genuine Stihl ones) do sneak into the prohibitive dear ones- but price a new Meteor top end for the 044/440 or at the lowest end of the scale a Hyway one- don't get a $20 fleabay one and hope to have the original performance, quality or longevity.

Worth fixing up, but first see if your conrod and crank are in good condition and you might have to split cases to start with a main crank bearings up rebuild.

Great news thank you! At least all that OEM plastic I bought won't be wasted! Do you know how I can be certain which wrist pin I have? It looks like it should be 12mm, is that correct?

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

https://youtu.be/HdX0L5PRIJg

This is the saw running at the time I bought it 2 weeks ago, it wasn't used at all between this video, and when it died after 15 minutes of cutting. It was never really easy to start.

Well, least it was running and wasn't real terrible.
Someone had some parts from old saw wrecks, bolted enough of them together that were similar enough to make a running saw and sold it to the unsuspecting and heart on a sleeve type truster.

I will still suggest it is worth fixing (especially seeing as how you have already bought cosmetics)- but be prepared to do at least main crank oil seals and possibly bearings.

 

[Ocala]

Well, least it was running and wasn't real terrible.
Someone had some parts from old saw wrecks, bolted enough of them together that were similar enough to make a running saw and sold it to the unsuspecting and heart on a sleeve type truster.

I will still suggest it is worth fixing (especially seeing as how you have already bought cosmetics)- but be prepared to do at least main crank oil seals and possibly bearings.

Yeah I agree I shouldn't cut corners when I'm in there anyway, I want to do it right. Do you think this one is the 12mm wrist pin based on the pictures I have up here so far, or do I need to open it up to really know?

I did read something about the serial number cutoff for the 10mm, but that might only apply to the 044 as opposed to the 440.

Thanks again, learning fast here

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

To be honest I did not look too hard- probably a 440 top end on their now if that is what the shop told you.

 

[Mad Professor]

Pull off the muffler and covers. Post pictures of the cylinder and inside P/C through the muffler.

Hopefully the cylinder is OEM and it can be used with a new Stihl or Meteor piston. Don't go buying more parts until you tear it down and see condition of rest of the saw. The crank and cases being most important.

 

[Raatler]

Looks like from the S/N, in the picture you posted, the part number you want for the Piston pin is 1128 034 1501.
Tha6t woould be the 12mm.
Attached is an IPL of the Cylinder and piston for that serial number.

Not sure how a picture of a MS 260 S/N barcode got posted.

But good luck on your rebuild.

 

[muddy42]

I just fixed up a 460 with a meteor piston and cylinder and it now runs fine. If your cylinder is genuine and just dirty maybe you can reuse it.

Please vac and pressure test the saw before you go spending any more money.

 

[Ocala]

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice so far…

I called the shop today and asked them to pressure and vacuum test before I pick it up and they said they would assuming they have the correct adapter for the carb.

So hopefully I’ll know that today, pick the saw up and take the photos that could hrr we look figure out what’s going on.

The guy at the shop told me the piston looks “shiny” but he thought that’s because it was worn.

The seller said he had installed a new piston, along with other things. I don’t really think the seller knew it was a 440…

Here’s the sellers text to me.

 

[Ocala]

Can anyone tell me if the crankcases from a 044 and 440 should be interchangeable?

Thanks again

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice so far…

I called the shop today and asked them to pressure and vacuum test before I pick it up and they said they would assuming they have the correct adapter for the carb.

So hopefully I’ll know that today, pick the saw up and take the photos that could hrr we look figure out what’s going on.

The guy at the shop told me the piston looks “shiny” but he thought that’s because it was worn.

The seller said he had installed a new piston, along with other things. I don’t really think the seller knew it was a 440…

Here’s the sellers text to me.

If piston is not OEM or Meteor, I'd probably toss it, new or not. Is cylinder OEM?

 

[irhunter]

My 2 cents.

Do not even think about buying parts right now.

I would start by separating the tank/handle from the case and pulling off the cylinder.

Post pics.

You did good asking for a pressure/vac test. But, you will, real soon, want to buy your own tester.

Roy

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

Can anyone tell me if the crankcases from a 044 and 440 should be interchangeable?

Thanks again

Basically all 1128 family stuff interchanges- the saw you purchased is point in case- you have flippy caps of the MS series of saws on your oil tank and screw on caps on your fuel tank of the earlier 0## saws. So you have a 440 crankcase on an 044 tank/handle.
That and you have a decomp cylinder (MS 440 or copy of) with the access to the button crudely smashed through the top cover for an 044.
Got to love the hand written 044 on the recoil cover tag with the well worn STIHL still visible under as well.

 

[Mad Professor]

My 2 cents.

Do not even think about buying parts right now.

I would start by separating the tank/handle from the case and pulling off the cylinder.

Post pics.

You did good asking for a pressure/vac test. But, you will, real soon, want to buy your own tester.

Roy

Pull the clutch and flywheel, clean well, then pull cylinder. I think you need clutch on for 044/440 to do vac/pres test.

 

[Ocala]

The guy at the shop did a pressure text and said that the case leaked slowly but that he thought it should be fine with a new top end.

He said the compression wasn’t really great. I had measured 120lb on it before all this started.

Here’s some pics of the piston and cylinder.

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

I'd find a new shop- one that could give me an accurate report of a pressure and vacuum test I was paying to have done!
Like "case leaked slowly" from when??? Soon as you stopped applying pressure? A few minutes after you stopped applying pressure? Dropped marginally on the gauge? Fully to 0 on the gauge? If it dropped on pressure- how did the test results go for vacuum? Was the crank rotated and then the gauge showed pressure drop?

Or WHAT you muppet?

Would have been my own personal barrage of questions.

He thinks it will be fine because you possibly bought the plastics off of him so he is hoping you give him your cash for a new OEM top end as well and maybe he can sell you another one or a new saw in a wee while when the case leaks cause another top end failure?

If it were mine and I wanted to keep it, I would be checking the crank for play- with the cylinder and piston off- starting from there and knowing I was in for at LEAST new main oil seals.
Then it looks like if the cylinder is a genuine one- it would clean up any transfer that has occurred- just going off the visual through the exhaust port- clean any carbon from the exhaust post and combustion area- new Meteor piston and rings, new gaskets, new OEM rubber ware and carb kit- then tuned by someone that can tune a two stroke- maybe not the same guy that did the pressure test.

 

[Ocala]

I agree with

I'd find a new shop- one that could give me an accurate report of a pressure and vacuum test I was paying to have done!
Like "case leaked slowly" from when??? Soon as you stopped applying pressure? A few minutes after you stopped applying pressure? Dropped marginally on the gauge? Fully to 0 on the gauge? If it dropped on pressure- how did the test results go for vacuum? Was the crank rotated and then the gauge showed pressure drop?

Or WHAT you muppet?

Would have been my own personal barrage of questions.

He thinks it will be fine because you possibly bought the plastics off of him so he is hoping you give him your cash for a new OEM top end as well and maybe he can sell you another one or a new saw in a wee while when the case leaks cause another top end failure?

If it were mine and I wanted to keep it, I would be checking the crank for play- with the cylinder and piston off- starting from there and knowing I was in for at LEAST new main oil seals.
Then it looks like if the cylinder is a genuine one- it would clean up any transfer that has occurred- just going off the visual through the exhaust port- clean any carbon from the exhaust post and combustion area- new Meteor piston and rings, new gaskets, new OEM rubber ware and carb kit- then tuned by someone that can tune a two stroke- maybe not the same guy that did the pressure test.

Everything you’ve said is all great advice. I'm into this one far enough that I'm determined to follow it through. It was frustrating to get such a vague reply to a specific question. In any case, regardless of how bad the crank leak is the case... I really want to fix this saw. I don't have the equipment to test it myself, I understand you need the correct adapters for the carburetor.

Everything in the pile of stuff I have for this saw is OEM, and I don't want to use anything else. So I have the service manual now and I'm going to replace the piston and cylinder carefully with what I can read about how to do it combined with the generous advice of I've found from all here.

I already have the piston and cylinder on the way. I know I was advised not to buy parts until I had these tests complete, but this looked like a good deal (I hope) on the piston and cylinder so I picked it up. This will no doubt turn into an expensive saw, but I'm running out of parts to buy, and I had no intention of giving up on the project regardless of the condition of the crank and case.

Thanks again for your help.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383828599100​

 

[Bob Hedgecutter]

Okay, you just dropped $250 that maybe you did not have to- but having already done it- you need to know the bottom end is good before you burn up/trash $250 in the first tank of gas you try to run.
By that I mean all your bearings need to be in tip top condition. I personally have destroyed a new top end on a saw build once because I believed the big end rod bearing was okay without a thorough check- had I moved the rod sideways a bit and seen bits of the cage were breaking up- I might not have been so fast to bolt the new top on, start it up and take it to wide open throttle!
You NEED to know it is sealed well and bearings are not suspect on the bottom end- does that kit you bought come with a new wrist pin bearing?
DO NOT bin the old cylinder- especially if it is OEM, I am willing to bet it can be cleaned of transfer and be good to use again.