'Pollarding'

[jamie]

I'll set the scene,

At work my company have been working on a huge site for the new Royal Bank of Scotlands International Headquaters at Gogarburn

Before i arrived they carried out the site clearance, mulching etc....and we are now onto the tree surgery work to coincide with the landscaping.

The place is slowly driving me mad, we keep getting told to prune trees to X height over an access road so that the excavators can get in, 2 weeks later we have to go back and reprune and tell them we told you so.

we are currently tending to one of their woodland blocks and "Pollarding" the trees to X height. my question is why does the tree surveyor call them pollards when what he really means is 'create vertical deadwood habitat' cos all we are really doing is substantially topping (reducing from 25m to about 5m!!!!!) the trees and killing them, oh and we are also to 'pollard' dead trees....

as far as im aware and this is what ive always been taught that pollarding is a management technique used from an early age, where the tree sustains little damage and therefor little rot, not topping to create deadwood habitat

why cant he just say that

rant over

jamie

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by jamie
we keep getting told to prune trees to X height over an access road so that the excavators can get in, 2 weeks later we have to go back and reprune and tell them we told you so.

Why aren't they told to find a new way for the excavators to get in? Sounds like it's a convenience for them, not a necessity.
ps Asplundh is a utility contractor that gets a bad rap because line clearance work is by its nature tree-unfriendly. The crew in my area are well-trained and do as good a job as they can.

 

[jamie]

excavators

the excavators are too work along the access roads to dig pipe and cable trenches, the head honcho told us that the excavators would be told to be 'careful', how many digger operators are careful of a few branches when they have a job to do in X amount of time and have a 45ton digga to do it........

jamie

 

[Treeman14]

You're right, Jamie. Pollarding is not the same as topping. Pollarding is an accepted practice, but it must be started when the trees are young and done regularly throughout the life of the tree. All cuts are typically less than 1 inch diameter wood. Just because they call it pollarding doesn't make it OK. You're in a tough spot, for sure. Better to just bite the bullet and do your job as told. I'm a firm believer in letting management determine policy.

 

[TREETX]

I like pollard when done properly. Several nice ones in Paris, Champs Elleysees (sp?), UC Berkely has nice ones too. My main beef with them is that they are a maintenance nightmare. Most attemps I have seen, they are not properly maintained so follow up cuts are greater than 1 inch.

It is all to often used to justify topping.

All too often I have seen crown reductions where limbs are reduced to laterals that are 1/10th the diameter of the main lead. Glorified topping.........

.02

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

One way of looking at it is they are setting it up for you to come back and remove the dead 6m shrubs in a few years.

The easy answer is that they don't care, and the sales people at your company don't want to or cannot educate the engineers. To some people treeworkers are not professionals, they are labor only a step or two above garbage picker.

"Oh you cut trees!"

While the 1 inch 1 year rule of thumb is not concrete, it is true that pollarding still needs to hold to the rules of nodal pruning. Even if it is 2 inch cuts on a 3 year cycle. Then "Young" is a very relative term; with some trees, to get the desired scaffold you need to wait til they are 20-30 years old.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by TREETX
.

All too often I have seen crown reductions where limbs are reduced to laterals that are 1/10th the diameter of the main lead. Glorified topping.........

.02

...or not, depending on the species site and most of all condition. Heading cuts to nodes with NO laterals can be better than to 1:3 laterals. It can be proper pruning; read ANSI, and Shigo's ANTB before condemning crown reduction.

Leaving "Stubs" is often better for the tree than deep cuts to big laterals. How the tree looks right after pruning means nothing; how it responds in the future means everything.

 

[TREETX]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
To some people treeworkers are not professionals, they are labor only a step or two above garbage picker.

"Oh you cut trees!"

Friggin headache of my life. I get tired of that attitude. -- People who think I climb trees because I have to, not because I want to.

Meeting with an old friend this weekend and his friends from Houston. They are all MBA's or NASA engineers (seriously). When they ask what I do for a living, they either respect it or get a puzzled look on their face as if I was choosing to be a garbage collector. Inevitably, they all drink too much and start whining about their desk jobs. If I can tell they are the kind of people who don't rspect what I do, I just tell them I am a rodeo clown or a test smeller for Dr. Scholl's Odor eaters...

They customer who top and then say, "see I told you so..." Those are the same kind that view you as the equivalent of a garbage collector.......

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I love it when they start whining about their jobs. I'll respond "And I get paid to do something I love"

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by Treeman14
Better to just bite the bullet and do your job as told. I'm a firm believer in letting management determine policy.

This sounds like the worst view to have on just about any issue. Jamie, it seems you understand that something is wrong here. If you don't do something, things will stay wrong.

I've worked at a few smaller businesses and right away I told them I wouldn't top trees. Some don't get it. One day boss says, "Here's the address, the lady will be home and she'll show you what she wants done." We pull up later with the chip truck, she shows me the tree (nice Norway maple- maybe 60' tall) I get my rope set while she's in the house. I'm at the top of the tree, beginning the deadwood when she comes out the back door and starts instructing me. I quickly realize she just wants the tree topped to just below half it's height. ("See that branch over there...cut off all the branches to that height.")

I came right down from the tree, asked her if this was what the boss had agreed on, then told here there was a problem. I went back to the shop.

If people are always biting the bullet and letting management deal with "policies" black people would still be called ****** and women wouldn't be able to vote.

Everyone has to stand up for something.

love
nick

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Treeman14
Better to just bite the bullet and do your job as told. I'm a firm believer in letting management determine policy.

Better to spit the bullet out and into management's eye if they refuse to consider change in policy. Best yet to give them everything they need to make the change; show them there's profit in doing it the right way.

 

[TREETX]

Originally posted by NickfromWI

If people are always biting the bullet and letting management deal with "policies" black people would still be called ******* and women wouldn't be able to vote.

Everyone has to stand up for something.

Thanks Nick, good to hear something intelligent for a change.....other than bickering on this site. People TRY to be brutally honest - you are. Someone has to say it like it is.



Take care Lovey

Having said that, I would top the f'ers if that is what my boss pays me to do. Let the Royal Bank buy new ones. I don't know where they grow em but I have seen street side pollarded plane trees dropped in over night......as if tree ninjas had been there.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by TREETX
good to hear something intelligent for a change...Having said that, I would top the f'ers if that is what my boss pays me to do.

So you think it's right to resist management when policy is wrong, unless it affects your paycheck? OK, NIMBY.....
I think it was murph who pointed out that some ethics are relative; that we're all whores with different prices and different issues we will sell out on under different conditions.
The strongest condition of course being poverty. When income is low and bills are high, ethical principles get bent or abandoned. That's a major issue to work out, from a bad position that everyone can relate to.

 

[TREETX]

I am not sure that the policy there is wrong. Depends on the landscape and the intended use of it in the future. They may just be satisfying certain needs for permitting, etc with plans to remove the trees at some point later. I frequently don't have a lot of respect for super urban artificial landscapes where the trees are all planted in rows, etc - they somehow seem like pawns. A 400 yr ols oak is a different story......

Is something wrong with NIMBY? Everybody feels that way about something.

.02

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by TREETX
I am not sure that the policy there is wrong. Depends on the landscape and the intended use of it in the future.
True, we can't judge without knowing that.

Is something wrong with NIMBY? Everybody feels that way about something.
.02

Yeah there is, if they feel that way about most things.
.01

 

[jamie]

cost

at the moment there is a huge fuss over here as the scottish parilment is in teh region on £400 million , the royal bank is costing way more, they landscaped a huge area (£thousands) , below a tower crane, so that they could fly someone up to say, 'hmm thats nice' only for him to fly back the same day and the landscaping ripped up, money is no cost, 3 oaks £18,000 ($27,000 roughly) and they were not guyed in right, the underground guys were slack, pulled the wires up a foot myself, before it became taught to pull by hand, within 2 days one of the root plates was showing signs of cracking.......

the people we are sub contracted out to, sit in their offices, Mr Burns style, (Hmmm Smithers, who shall we sack today) and occasionally come out onto the site, anyway, i know that we will be asked to come back in in 6 weeks time to remove all these horrible and ugly sticks that are hanging around, I dont agree with it, but ive got no chance the folk in charge are asses,,,,,

i agree on deadwood habitat creation( i did my honours thesis on it) in woodlands, but not in thin strips, and not in the small isolated areas, but i do get to be around trees,

off out to go drinking with some tree friendly friends

jamie

 

[Tree Machine]

Pollarding trees

Jamie, you've landed a most unique gig. The Royal Bank of Scotland's World Headquarters. Wow. I'll bet the layers of administration and bureauacracy are, like, 50 generations deep there.

Maybe there's some cultural connection to pollarded trees. As I understand, pollarding originated long ago, once upon a time, on the properties of castles. During times of harsh Winter, or lockdown, the trees on the castle grounds would need to serve as fuel for cooking or heating. Sometimes the trees were just stripped of their limbage altogether, leaving nothing but a standing trunk.

The following Spring, miraculously, the beheaded trunks sprang back to life (probably mulberry ) and dwarfed versions of the trees began. Every couple of Winters the limbs could be 'harvested' and the medieval treeguy knew that the hardy tree would rebound the following Spring which pleased the King, as well as the Queen and I imagine most of the rest of the court.

After 10 or 20 years of this pruning, pruning, pruning, pruning, whacking, and the buildup of all the callus tissue, the top of the tree becomes this bulbous, contorted, enlarged head on a tree trunk. But the King likes this. The indentured servant treeguy keeps the watersprouts pruned tastefully and 'managed'. After a couple years, or until the diameters were 2-3 cm, and after the trees had gone dormant in the late Fall, the limbs would get lopped off, at the head, leaving a bald, oblong, swelling bio-orb atop a living post of a tree trunk. The stored energy in the roots over Winter gives rise to sprouts in the Spring, and photosynthesis takes it from there.

These trees served as a savings account of a valuable commodity - Fuel. This could be your socio-cultural connection! It could have been the direct ancestors of these wealthy people who began the 'art' of pollarding 50 or 200 generations ago. Pollarded trees have always been associated with the richety rich and stands as a sort of symbol.

Armed with this little tidbit of knowledge and understanding, prune their trees nicely, then go around and whack off all the limbs in February. Next Spring ya prune the watersprouts now and again, pruning just the very tips when they reach arms length (Silky saw used like a machete). Keep the crowns small and tight (or shall we say, petit'?) for 2 - 3 years, then start the process all over again. As the trunks get bigger over time, the growth rate of your 'limbage' increases and regular pruning should be maintained, giving the effect of a dwarfed crown atop an inordinately large trunk. Royalty, I hear, loves this stuff.

Take 'before' pictures, and then we want you to report back in 20 years. Tell the King the Tree Machine says hi. -TM-

 

[Acer]

Hi Jamie,

What species are we talking about here? And how big is the area? ie. what's it going to look like when these trees would be mature? Is the pollarding some sort of risk management plan? Can't that be done some other way ( ie. exclude people/remove targets, then so what if they fall over)? How old are these woodland blocks? All planted, or semi-natural?

you're right in that pollarding was originally a technique started on a tree at an early age. Pollards either provided a crop of binders or poles out of reach of browsing animals, or were treated in this way to make markers. If you're interested in this, Oliver Rackham's "History of the Countryside" is a good read, although I think he only deals with south of the border. Still a good read..

The dead wood issue is one of the latest bandwagons to jump on. Valid points in the right context, but often people seize on these key points without understanding the context. Yes, there is a national shortage of standing dead wood, and it might be part and parcel of noted declines in certain species further up the food chain. Yet, you hear consultants talking about creating standing deadwood in plantations less than 10 years old. Might be an idea to establish your woodland before thinking about dead wood creation. Anyway, how will pollarding create dead wood habitat? I'd have thought ring barking would be a much better option.

You sound like me a few years ago. I don't want to teach Granny how to suck eggs, but this is what I've found out over the last few years...If you are interested in trees or conservation of any sort, you don't want to be working on these sorts of projects anyway. Landscrape artichokes know very little about the subject except prices for various works quoted in Spons'. The job'll drive you mad, like it did me. Always having to do the wrong thing..at the double! If you don't mind being forever skint, I'd get a few years experience under your belt (unless you have tht already), save up a 'war chest' and then go it alone. If you can cope with the endless paperwork and insurance hassles, there's a lot of work on local authority and English/Scottish Nature reserves and SSSIs for the right people. They can get contractors, but they can't get contractors that care..

Nick

PS If you'd ever thought of going it alone, I'd avoid any climbing work, too. With the insurance and health & safety climate now, you won't make any money in people's back gardens by doing the job properly..the cowboys do most of that work now. Local authority work needs machines+big well trained teams..you'll never put a harness on again, you'll be too busy with paperwork and admin. Sorry to sound so bleak, but that's the way it looks from here..

 

[jamie]

to pollard or not to pollard

Right i'll say it straight, the pollards are trees with everfything green removed, to leave a 2m - 5m stick, simple....not proper pollarding just hacking the tree, until its a stick....... sever topping, chances are that the site managers will tell us to remove them in 2 weeks time (the head of the contracting company asked us why we had left all the boles, we replied with because thats what the landscape architect wants). best example is the sycamore of about 8m high only about 15cmdbh and they want it pollarded at 5m, below the canopy......they talk s***e.

as for deadwood, its a pile of poo what they are after, they want a sink popluation but as we move through the wood we 'tidy up' the source population........weird.... and newly butchered trees are not sutable deadwood habitat for most species, only a few.....and how many sustainable saproxylic populations depend on a woodland where all of the wood decays in relative unison?????? if you can,check out Karin Schiegg's work (she is a swiss scientist) i cited her work quite a lot.

the company i work for are a biggish (well big machines, cranes, excavators, tracked mulchers) company who do lots of local authority work, if i eventually set up on my own i'd like to climb but as you say the cowboys get that work......

anyway thats me, this jobs almost over so im less stressed, we are more having a laugh now, wandering round the wood looking for the trees that we missed, needed more bodies for....

jamie