Poperty Wood Thinning Question
- Thread starter sdhershey
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For trees mostly poplar, pine, and some small maples. I would like the maples to get some more sunlight and have some more space to grow, but if I cut down everything else, there wouldn't be much privacy at all. I also have questions about what to do with the wood that's being cut. Some of it may be good, I don't want to have to torch it all.
I'm on the west coast, but some things are the same logging wise. You need to figure out what spacing you need for your objective and what species you want left. Then figure out how much volume you are taking out, what quality and species...a timber cruise. Then is it worth selling it? Logging it? Hiring a logger?
Where are you going to sell the logs?
Logging wise. If it is worth it, how flat is your ground? How dry? Are your trees limb locked? Limb locked means grown into each other so if felled by hand, they won't hit the ground easily, they want to stay hung up. Using a feller buncher handles that well.
Do you want machinery on your ground? What kind of roads and access is there?
Are there already old skid trails on the property or will new ones need to be cut out? Where would the landings be? What kind of loggers are in your area?
What permits. if any. will be needed? I've probably left out some stuff. You'll want to talk these and other details with a local person. A forester maybe or somebody with experience.
Where are you going to sell the logs?
Logging wise. If it is worth it, how flat is your ground? How dry? Are your trees limb locked? Limb locked means grown into each other so if felled by hand, they won't hit the ground easily, they want to stay hung up. Using a feller buncher handles that well.
Do you want machinery on your ground? What kind of roads and access is there?
Are there already old skid trails on the property or will new ones need to be cut out? Where would the landings be? What kind of loggers are in your area?
What permits. if any. will be needed? I've probably left out some stuff. You'll want to talk these and other details with a local person. A forester maybe or somebody with experience.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm sure it's different everywhere you go. But around here there isn't really a market for saw logs, and Pine/Fir firewood (mostly what we cut) brings about $150 a full cord. There's a pellet mill about 35 miles away, down a 6% grade that's 16 miles long, that will pay $18 a green ton for small logs. So the wood isn't really worth much of anything.
I charge by the acre, and the price depends on the prescription for the property, ground conditions, and total number of acres. After all is said and done the wood belongs to me. I actually charge a little less if the land owner wants to keep the wood and deal with it theirselves. Most of the private land I do is "total removal". All of the wood is removed (or decked if the land owner wants to keep it), and the slash and tops are mulched in place, or chipped.
Hopefully there is a market in your area that will allow you to recoup most or all of the expenses. Heck if you have a good enough market you might make a little, but I doubt it.
Andy
I charge by the acre, and the price depends on the prescription for the property, ground conditions, and total number of acres. After all is said and done the wood belongs to me. I actually charge a little less if the land owner wants to keep the wood and deal with it theirselves. Most of the private land I do is "total removal". All of the wood is removed (or decked if the land owner wants to keep it), and the slash and tops are mulched in place, or chipped.
Hopefully there is a market in your area that will allow you to recoup most or all of the expenses. Heck if you have a good enough market you might make a little, but I doubt it.
Andy
Double_Diamond
ArboristSite Member
Another thing to look into is if there are any local, state or federal grants avialable for timber enhancement/fire reduction. I know things are different on the east coast but here in California this is a big thing. I have 20 acres of pine, cedar and brush. I recieved a grant from the National Resource Conservation Service (NRCS) to remove the brush and thin the trees to promote a better stand of timber and reduce the risk of fire. This is a federal program but I know that there are also state grants available. Of the 20 acres, I will be working on about 15 acres and will recieve about $18,000 once I am done. This is for hand thinning about 4 acres of dense pine and then thinning and brush removal on the rest. They also paid a couple thousand for a forester to draw up a timber management plan too. It is a heck of a deal since I was going to do the work anyways.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I have heard about that how do you get into it?
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
And they allow you to do the work your self?
Double_Diamond
ArboristSite Member
The local resource conservation district sent out a flyer to all the property owners in the area that we live. They were having a meeting that explained the government program and gave the contact information for the people administering it. It is a two part program. The first part involved hiring a registered forester and having them write up a management plan. Once the plan was approved the NRCS direct deposited the money in my bank account and I paid the forester.
The second part is the implementation of the plan. You can do all the work yourself or hire someone. All the NRCS cares about is that the plan be fully implemented and completed. Once completed, they pay you. In my case the first task is tree thinning. About 5 acres is pretty dense in pine and cedar. I am hand thinning to about 18' o.c., piling and burning the slash. The second phase is the brush thinning. It is all manzanita anywhere from 8 to 12' tall. I am going to rent a mini excavator to rip it out and pile it for burning. I was able to tell the forester exactly what I wanted to do and he just incorporated it into his plan.
So far the people I have been dealing with at the NRCS have been very easy to work with and used common sense to make decisions which was a welcome surprise.
The second part is the implementation of the plan. You can do all the work yourself or hire someone. All the NRCS cares about is that the plan be fully implemented and completed. Once completed, they pay you. In my case the first task is tree thinning. About 5 acres is pretty dense in pine and cedar. I am hand thinning to about 18' o.c., piling and burning the slash. The second phase is the brush thinning. It is all manzanita anywhere from 8 to 12' tall. I am going to rent a mini excavator to rip it out and pile it for burning. I was able to tell the forester exactly what I wanted to do and he just incorporated it into his plan.
So far the people I have been dealing with at the NRCS have been very easy to work with and used common sense to make decisions which was a welcome surprise.
I've worked with the NRCS a few times and had good experiences.
indiansprings
Firewood Purveyor
I if were the OP I would contact the local state forester and have him come out and evaluate the property. Here in Mo. it doesn't cost you a dime, they will mark the trees that need removed and help you develop a sound mgnt plan.
371groundie
ArboristSite Guru
hire a forester. even if its just for a consulation.
'thinning' is a term descibing the silvicultural practice of removing trees from a stand to allow other trees more space/light/water/nutrients to grow. typically you remove the poorly formed or low value trees to allow the good trees to get bigger and thus more valuable. its a science and an art. and somone who doesnt know what they are doing usually commit silvicultural abominations.
from what youve said i suspect that most of the popple should come out leaving the pine and maple that are both more valuable and longer lived. you can also remove the pines and maples that are poorly formed or showing signs of decline. but thats like me telling you to replace your head gasket without looking at your car.
seriously, hire a forester, they can not only tell you whats best for the stand/land, but also whats best financially.
'thinning' is a term descibing the silvicultural practice of removing trees from a stand to allow other trees more space/light/water/nutrients to grow. typically you remove the poorly formed or low value trees to allow the good trees to get bigger and thus more valuable. its a science and an art. and somone who doesnt know what they are doing usually commit silvicultural abominations.
from what youve said i suspect that most of the popple should come out leaving the pine and maple that are both more valuable and longer lived. you can also remove the pines and maples that are poorly formed or showing signs of decline. but thats like me telling you to replace your head gasket without looking at your car.
seriously, hire a forester, they can not only tell you whats best for the stand/land, but also whats best financially.
TMFARM 2009
Addicted to ArboristSite
and amen to that!!!! well said.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
That's pretty similar to some of the programs available here through the State Forestry. They have what they call a "cost share" program for owners of smaller properties. The State Forestry (through the federal government) will pay up to 70% of the cost of a contractor up to $1150 per acre for their part. Larger property owners (100 acres or more) who's property qualifies can get 100% funding with a cap of about $1500 per acre.
These are the jobs I work on most of the time. I'm working on a 240 acre project right now, and found out today that funding for another 160 acres was available if the land owner and I were interested. We were both laughing as we tried to express our interest. Job security...............I love it!
Gologit told me several months ago things would pick up. Gotta hand it to him, the man knows what he's talking about.
Andy
There's an NRCS forester job opening near here. I wonder if it would be about advising in situations similar to this? I wonder if I ought to apply?
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
That's what I am wondering I have 40 acres I have already cleared some for food plots and access trails but the majority is ultra thick 20 year re-growth. The thing is what hardwood was left is going to stay and it don't matter what a forester thinks I don't plan to cut my oaks. I will cut the smaller ones and thin the pine I have tractor ,saws ,grapple truck so I could effectively get the work done could I be my own contractor and get paid essentially to perform the plan?
Incorporated, perhaps. That gives me an idea.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I am probably on the same page lol creating work and beautifying my property not a bad deal?
Indeed!
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
Rope, I don't know if they would let you do the work yourself or not. Or if a similar program is available in your neck of the woods or not.
They don't let many land owners do their own here. I think they had some bad experiences in the past.
Around here the thinning is mostly of conifers, for fire prevention. But I do know that to recieve the grant you have to follow the foresters perscription. They're paying the bill, so they want the say on what goes.
Andy
They don't let many land owners do their own here. I think they had some bad experiences in the past.
Around here the thinning is mostly of conifers, for fire prevention. But I do know that to recieve the grant you have to follow the foresters perscription. They're paying the bill, so they want the say on what goes.
Andy
