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Beer Gut

A Fine Pilsner
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I have a guy who works for me who originally went to UTI for Harley Mechanic. Had some conversation with him about polishing ports on bikes or saws both in my case. He had an instructor there that said he believes polishing ports is counter productive. A rough cast port helps to atomize gases.

What are thoughts here??
 
Smooth can be a very broad term. Smooth as in free flowing, port matched and without obstructions. But you don't want to polish it off to a mirror finish. Also keep in mind how small a saws intake system is compared to a motorcycle, car or other engine.
 
Smooth can be a very broad term. Smooth as in free flowing, port matched and without obstructions. But you don't want to polish it off to a mirror finish. Also keep in mind how small a saws intake system is compared to a motorcycle, car or other engine.

Right I brought up a broad topic here, I owned Harelys and have saws. We just talked about ports in general, his experience exceeded mine. My interest is purely saws now. He didnt fully buy into all of it either. Just made some points. This guy builds a hell of a bike, and this is what he told me based on education. I think a good conversation piece.

I am not ready to do port work yet, but thought about polishing them over winter, questioning now if thats a good idea.
 
One thing to consider for a harley is that it operates at a much lower rpm, and as it's a 4 stoke, the intake duration is depending on the cam somewhere over 200 degrees every other crank rotation vs. ~120 degree duration for every crank rotation for a two stroke. Also the inlet tract on the Harley is much longer than a saw. Not to bash harleys, but their engines are anything but state of the art when it comes to producing top hp per cc or ci.

As far as I'm concerned, the theory that a rough port helps atomize gasses is bs. You need to understand fluid mechanics and that the flow next to the wall of a port is zero and velocity is max at the approximate center of a the port. Here's a display of boundry layer flow.

img00035.gif


The only thing that atomizes the fuel is the carburator, or fuel injection. If you have a carb that just dribbles out the fuel, a rough cast port isn't going to fix that.

All high performance two strokes I'm familiar with have the ports smoothed out in the process of matching the ports and otherwise cleaning them up, and all make power gains in the process, albeit small gains.

My understanding of the keep the ports rough train of thought is that for lower rpm engines with long inlet tracts it helps keep the fuel from dropping out of the air flow, it has nothing to do with atomizing the fuel. But few engine builders have a background in fluid mechanics and hence truly understand air flow and merely pass on the lore they've heard.
 
One thing to consider for a harley is that it operates at a much lower rpm, and as it's a 4 stoke, the intake duration is depending on the cam somewhere over 200 degrees every other crank rotation vs. ~120 degree duration for every crank rotation for a two stroke. Also the inlet tract on the Harley is much longer than a saw. Not to bash harleys, but their engines are anything but state of the art when it comes to producing top hp per cc or ci.

As far as I'm concerned, the theory that a rough port helps atomize gasses is bs. You need to understand fluid mechanics and that the flow next to the wall of a port is zero and velocity is max at the approximate center of a the port. Here's a display of boundry layer flow.

img00035.gif


The only thing that atomizes the fuel is the carburator, or fuel injection. If you have a carb that just dribbles out the fuel, a rough cast port isn't going to fix that.

All high performance two strokes I'm familiar with have the ports smoothed out in the process of matching the ports and otherwise cleaning them up, and all make power gains in the process, albeit small gains.

My understanding of the keep the ports rough train of thought is that for lower rpm engines with long inlet tracts it helps keep the fuel from dropping out of the air flow, it has nothing to do with atomizing the fuel. But few engine builders have a background in fluid mechanics and hence truly understand air flow and merely pass on the lore they've heard.


So if someone wanted to improve the performance of a saw, you could do so by polishing the ports? Meaning I am not ready for port work yet, but if I would go in with an air tool and smooth out the rough surfaces with sand paper then polish with a fine sand paper or diamond paste I could improve performance? After a retune of course, and this would include both intake and exhaust? Only removing a few thousandths of an inch, and not knowing which way is good or bad, just buzzing it clean.
 
So saw performance can be increased by grinding out rough spots and shinning up ports? I am not ready for port work yet but would like to this winter start simple by maybe a polish job. Use an air tool and go in and sand out rough or uneven spots. Then polish with fine sandpaper or diamond paste. Im only looking at taking out a few thousandths do I need to be concerned when doing this? And besides a retune do I need to be concerned with doing this?
 
Honestly I doubt you could measure the increase in performance between a polished port and an as cast port, you'd have to have a very accurate dyno. My point was simply that those that say a "rough" port is better because it atomizes fuel are full of it and don't understand fluid mechanics.

And as far as using a flow bench to measure flow, on a two stroke the air flow is a pulse occuring at the same rate as the saws rpm, so 12,000 rpm, 12/000 pulses a minute or 200 times a second. It is not even close to a continuous flow as per a flow bench.

Most of what a tuner is doing when grinding ports is opening them up, a larger port will flow more air, the fact that the surface is now ground vs. as cast is just a byproduct of the work that is done.
 
tolman_paul is very close to dead nuts on.

I retired after 30 years of testing fluid flows as they relate to fans & pumps.

The physics are the same for engine ports.

I'm unconvinced that "polishing" any port - exh or intake will reap noticeable benefits.

However, enlarging, smoothing, etc. will result in greater flow.

40 - 50 years ago I ported bikes & car engines and @ that time conventional wisdom said leave the intake surface a little rough.

Subsequently, I learned that the majority of flow in a round port is in the center, as stated.

If the surface is too rough, a phenomenon of surface waves occurs as surface friction increases and effectively reduces the size of the conduit, resulting in increased velocity, resulting in deeper waves reducing the size even more.

If it's too smooth, there's more surface area for the fluid to rub against.

So I guess I would wonder how rough is too rough?

I think the performance gains we see on ported chainsaws is more a function of opening up and smoothing a restrictive port
than polishing it.

JMO

luck,greg
 
I spend some time reading here, and don't post much, over time I've learned that a "port job" amounts to a heck of a lot more than "polishing" the port. Port width, height, and timing are all altered. Compression is increased. Carbs are tweaked. Flywheels are lightened. And a whole lot more, sometimes.

dl
 
port finish

I will be the first to say I have little experince porting chain saws.I have ported on cylinder heads sence 1968.I have ran them with no polish with all the cnc step over marks up to a mirror like finish;even on the intakes.How can you test to see what best. You can't;but I will tell the nascar take off I have been getting have a very fine finish.Conclusion go with what makes you feel good or best eye appeal for your customer.:msp_thumbup:Steve
 
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