bikemike
loud pipes save lives
I agree on waiting till a saw is broke inn before porting or changing a saw if warranty is a concern. I refuse to run a cat in a saw those go before I even fire it up.
Porting, You get what you pay for
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the flaw in ur slaw is that i have already had slugs and jugs to my local machinest.....$50 he will cut the squish, cut the base and fly cut the bearing pockets on a clambshell engine. eliminate the squish and bearing pockets....add a popup piston which is a simple operation that even a novice could accomplish. granted i do allot of business with him so im sure i get a break.....still the question is valid....is porting like flat rate mechanic on a car....job costs $300 whether the mechanic spends 1hr or 8 hrs doing it....is that fair to the customer? sure makes the bottom line at the shop look good.I ain't a porter and don't have a dog in this fight. I do work at one of those "local machine shops", and will offer my opinion as to the cost of cutting a jug. You will be paying $200+ to have the base and squish cut to whatever specifications you provide. We don't have a shelf full of mandrels and fixtures to cut jugs, and we likely don't have appropriate material to make them. I don't know of any other shop that would keep stock on hand that they aren't going to use, or only use once every 10+ years(if that)....and we aren't likely to make them for a single job consisting of a single low dollar part. On top of that, we also assume the risk of damaging/destroying the part. Most likely, we aren't even going to take the job. Assuming we do, and assuming a 50mm jug....
2" UHMW(for the mandrel) is $9.30 a foot, plus shipping. I have no idea what it would cost to ship, but let's call it $10. So $20 to round it off.
Now we have to turn that to fit the bore, so we will figure on a half hour for that. Another $32.50(our shop rate is $65/hr unless you want it right now)
Next is figuring out how to hold the jug and drive it without damaging it...and still being able to move it to get it indicated in. So we build a rinky dink fixture from some random odd lengths on the shelf. There's another $15 in material and an hour($65) spent looking for junk that would work and then making it work.
Now we spend another 45 minutes($48.75) screwing around with the rinky dink fixture, getting the jug to run true, and cutting the base.
If we're lucky, we can cut the squish without moving anything. $0
We might not be, and then have to spend another 1/2-3/4hr fiddling with it to get it right again. $32.50-$48.75
Assuming we didn't have to move anything, we're at $181.25 before tax. You still have no porting done(which we aren't going to do anyway), and no popup.
If we did have to move something. then $213.75 to $230.....still no porting or popup.
If we destroyed the jug with a crappy fixture, setup, or some unexpected cluster**** occurs, we lose money.
I can guarantee that I have removed less material from a part and charged more for it than the "porting" from this thread cost. Should I have taken more off so the customer "got their money's worth", or only taken off what was necessary for optimum function of the part? It's a no brainer IMO. On the other hand, an agreement for services needs to have very precise and appropriate use of language to adequately define the scope of work to be performed. "Porting" implies(to me anyway) work being done on the ports to change the size or shape in some way. That doesn't appear to have been done from the photographs, but there isn't a pic of an unmodified jug for comparison either. I don't know for sure either way. In one of the pictures it doesn't appear that the liner has been matched to the port( or port matched to the liner, however you view it). The jug ain't in my hands, so again, I don't know for sure. I do know that if that's the case, I would be quite displeased at having paid for a service that was not(in my opinion) rendered in full. At the least, I would expect such a flaw to be corrected when "porting" a jug. That said, $200 wouldn't buy you that much at a "local machine shop".
I'll tell you a little more of what I think, based on what's been posted, while I'm here. I think this thread is pretty chicken**** in origin. The issue has been represented by the original poster as if the builder was unwilling to resolve the problem. The poster then admits to not having all of the information necessary to reach anything even close to an informed conclusion, while submitting enough information for others to make a guess as to the builder was. I believe you omitted the builders name purposely in order to avoid a clear case of libel. The peanut gallery has jumped in, clearly without anything resembling an intelligent, logical, thought process, and finally the builder shows up to present his case, by which time the more easily influenced individuals have already formed their bias. Anyway, I'm out of this thread. Ya'll do whatever it is you are going to do.
i can give you one great example of this....00 jeep grands have the fan relay located behind the bumper under the headlight....flat rate calls for 6hrs labor to remove the bumper and header panel to replace it. i can do it in 15 mins....dealers near me do it the same way i do it and charge 6 hrs. is that fair? what would you think if you took your vehicle in to be worked on....it took them 15 mins and they charged you for 6 hrs. I am just asking the question.....everyone can answer it for themselves.
I am a chicken ****? i thought long and hard about posting this because i know the wrath of pointing out someones work on this site.....i have already received some from a few...i will include you in that since your calling me a chicken ****. i have nothing to gain from posting this thread and everything to lose but i did it anyway because it seemed like the right thing to do. thats a rare thing these days....if you want to call me a chicken **** for doing it...thats fine. thats your opinion. go for it.
the saw was sent back twice for repairs and came back each time still not running correctly. he got tired of paying shipping back and forth so he brought it here. terry stepped up and replaced bearings and a carb....whether that was out of his pocket or through husky....i dont know and dont care.....but if he is going to warranty those items then why was the cylinder not covered too? where is the line drawn?
I had a saw ported once...i didnt ask to many questions before shipping my saw off. after this...i wanna know what kind of warranty i get with a port job.....does it only cover mistakes made by the porter or are they going to cover any major issue that comes up early on in the saws life? or does the saw have a taillight warranty? Is shipping costs to and from covered by me or the porter because this guy has a ton of money in jsut the shipping expense. does the warranty vary depending on if the saw is bought and sent to a builder or bought from a dealer that mods his own saws to sell? many new users or future purchasers of ported saws may have never thought of these questions.
procarbine2k1
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nothing but respect for you Nate. Anyone who has done business with you, knows that your intentions are 100% good, and no question you're doing everything you can for a customer that deserves a good running saw. Anyone who questions your intent behind this thread (which I thought was started as professionally as possibly could be)... needs their head checked. There has been plenty of those threads here, and I didn't think this appeared to be one of them.
Thank you
I work in a shop and do all the 2 cycle engine work. That is all I do and it is like a specialty for me. I work on cut off saws, chain saws, weed wackers, ice augers, if it is 2 cycle I do it. There is no flat rate there and I only have them billed according to the time I put into the saw. If it takes 15 minutes to clean a spark arrestor then that is all they get charged for and nothing else. If you know what your doing and do it often enough then you get fast at it and because I am fast at it just means the customer gets a problem solved at a decent cost. That brings in more return business.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
When I consider how ugly this sort of thing could get without both main players in all this being respectful and professional, I say hats off to both of you.
To be honest Terry's work looked fine as long as it makes an improvement. The base of that cylinder isn't pretty, but again I don't see it causing an issue IMHO. I like polishing the exhaust to keep carbon buildup down, it's completely unnecessary and does nothing for performance.
For a long time now I've been saying that with many saws setting the squish and open up the muffler will give you gains, most would be more than happy with, in many saws that's 90% of the port job anyway. Man did some of the builders beat me up for saying that, and tried to say I was calling porting a fad and so on. Fact is most of these so called builders are big fish in a small pond and can't take an ounce of criticism, even if it's constructive. I could have started porting saw myself, but I simply do not have the facility to do the work to my standards and in a timely meaner. Most take on the work anyway, because they can, and than the fan boys come along and we have a full blown builder war.
For a long time now I've been saying that with many saws setting the squish and open up the muffler will give you gains, most would be more than happy with, in many saws that's 90% of the port job anyway. Man did some of the builders beat me up for saying that, and tried to say I was calling porting a fad and so on. Fact is most of these so called builders are big fish in a small pond and can't take an ounce of criticism, even if it's constructive. I could have started porting saw myself, but I simply do not have the facility to do the work to my standards and in a timely meaner. Most take on the work anyway, because they can, and than the fan boys come along and we have a full blown builder war.
weedkilla
Ain't no guru of nuthin'
This thread should be locked
I neither build saws for hire or buy from those who do. But this class of saw presents challenges. So was the saw rebuilt with a new oem piston and cylinder left stock? Or did they go to the "machinist" ? Doubt those mod concepts would kill bearings. I have an early 562 stock with trashed bearings. so are there case changes from old to new? Looks like a couple of gasket options so wondered why that would be. I think brad pointed out the interference issue some have when lowering those cylinders.. that wouldn't kill a bearing but might cause a leak. Lots of stuff on those saws that push the boundaries. I'm inclined to err towards simplest approach possible on those. So maybe this thread could pivot into a discussion about these saws and tips to build for those inclined vs. A who did what to who type of thread. Really interesting design. Anyone wonder why both the stihls and new husky like all that heat around the transfers?
they work around the heat by splitting the transfers from the cylinder. Doesn't show in the pictures but the is airflow around them.
I wonder the same. My guess is to get charge temp up for a complete burn, and also to solve some of the cold start issues.
Imagine this 'port job' was Brads work, he'd be strung up, whipped, cained, quartered and buried alive. We all have done work that we are not so proud of, not one of us is immune from that but it's how we react to the problem and turn something negative into something positive that makes a man's man. Good on Nate for posting this, if your prepared to take the good....occaisionally ya gotta chew the bad. Transparity and honesty keeps people in check.
Big_Wood
westcoast dweller
To be honest Terry's work looked fine as long as it makes an improvement. The base of that cylinder isn't pretty, but again I don't see it causing an issue IMHO. I like polishing the exhaust to keep carbon buildup down, it's completely unnecessary and does nothing for performance.
For a long time now I've been saying that with many saws setting the squish and open up the muffler will give you gains, most would be more than happy with, in many saws that's 90% of the port job anyway. Man did some of the builder beat me up for saying that, and tried to say I was calling porting a fad and so on. Fact is most of these so called builders are big fish in a small pond and can't take an ounce of criticism, even if it's constructive. I could have started porting saw myself, but I simply do not have the facility to do the work to my standards and in a timely meaner. Most take on the work anyway, because they can, and than the fan boys come along and we have a full blown builder war.
i have owned alot of ported saws through trade here and the only saw i have ever had a wow factor for was a 372XT mdavlee ported for me (recently too) other then that one saw, i can make a saw run just as good without any machining whatsoever then any other saw i have received ported from any other builders. it's messed up really. makes me wanna run these build off saws to see what everyone talks about as i just don't see the gains published. the biggest POS labeled a good runner was a 372 with a meteor top end built by a reputable builder ( best builder by firewood hack status) here and was easily beat by the first 372 i ever owned which was done by walkers. alot diss walkers, how come they beat your saw? i really do want the fastest most reliable saw but i don't wanna spend an arm and a leg just to try the ****'n thing only to be let down as the firewood hacks here way overhype a builder. so far i have not seen what these hacks claim. i would normally live and learn but when it comes to builders on the internet i will learn and live.
It's sad that the environment some created caused those who ran into issues with a builders saw, to refrain from posting about the issue, do to the possibility of retribution from a select few. Hopefully things have changed.
I agree. The first 372 I did for a friend is stronger than my own EHP372 lol. Some builders back in the day only did good work for people they trusted or liked. Some "Brad comes to mind" made better and better saws as they gained experience and learned, his early 372's are nothing like the last one I ran.
There seems to be a mob mentality around Brad. Is it deserved? I doubt it. He's treated myself and many others here very well. I ended up owning the very first 261-CM he modified and it was a great running saw.
The only problem I have with Nate's (Fordf150) argument is that he states that he "knows absolutely nothing about porting" and yet "recognizes shoddy work when he sees it." There's enough of a contradiction there to raise a large shadow of doubt in my mind.
Shane- Walker's didn't *always* produce a quality product. From 2001-2006, I had five Walker's saws in my hands including one new 660 and one new 460 (I was falling as a contractor at the time). I also had a new Wood's Logging Supply 660 for a time and that saw blew away all the Walker's saws easily, regardless of the wood, bar, or chain. It was because at the time- Walker's was opening up the lower transfers and intake port so much, the charge lost most of its' velocity, and as a result- the saws had a real "lazy" feel. The Wood's Logging Supply machine was one of the best running saws I've ever owned. It had no machine work, a stock dual-port muffler, and the WJ-69 carb. The porting was unusual: squared-off transfers and clean finger ports.
I actually got three of my Walker's saws from CanadianCarGuy (Daniel).
Everyone has issues at times. About a month ago we rebuilt a dirt bike. 5 minutes of run time it abruptly shut off and had no compression. Cam gear came loose. Jumped time and bent a valve. New valves and a free valve job... Disaster solved.
What you do after a bad day says allot.
What you do after a bad day says allot.
Big_Wood
westcoast dweller
i hear ya JJ. walkers had a bad run when the old man retired. the old man has since pushed for the young bucks to learn what was already known. walkers 372's run stronger or as strong as alot fof 372's i have ran from builders here. same with the 385/390's. that is current.
I am referring to the poorly cut base and zero attempt to clean up the chatter marks from grinding, what I can only assume was a lack of pressure/vac test after rebuilding.
Compare that cylinder to the pictures of his cylinder on eBay and what he has posted here. A buyer assumes he is getting the detailed and quality craftsmanship that is shown.
There's a lot of assumptions going on there...I've never been inside one of Terry's saws so I can't say anything about it, other than from what I've seen on the forums and on Facebook- he seems to have a lot of satisfied customers and that speaks volumes. I've not seen him advertise anything on ebay either.
Like I've said here and elsewhere- people slammed some other "porting" jobs that didn't look like something special- but when it came down brass tacks, those saws were some of the fastest around at the time.
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