Sliverpicker, thanks.
Pre-commercial thinnings?
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Ah, government work. Most maligned. Misunderstood, envied, scorned.
Here is a secret: we know we're not doing things right. However, our government is so broken, so top-heavy, and so backwards that it's nearly impossible to get anything at all done, much less done in a timely fashion. Instead, we make do with the meager scraps that we are left. What you see as "lazy" is in fact, most often, "too tired to fight any more". Government folks are just like anyone else in that they want to do a good job of things. It's the government itself that is in the way.
Well said.
If your payment is late, file a claim. Or before it is "late" go in and say you've been waiting, pull out the contract and point to the payment clauses. Mention "claim". That will usually get the phones going. Oh, and more importantly, write letters. Keep copies. Document. What we lazy people are told in contract training--If It Isn't In Writing, It Didn't Happen.
The contract protects the contractor too.
100% true. I have even gotten things to "happen" retroactively by pulling my notes from the day-of as "documentation".
I find government employees to be fairly random, just as on the private side. There are good and bad eggs in each. A problem in government is that the bad eggs aren't removed from the carton very often, whereas a bad egg in private business costs someone money, and they aren't kept around. For years we had to work in a county where the local office refused to use an answering machine, though we were required to stay in touch with that office as we did jobs in the county. It can be so frustrating to be forced to deal with one of the bad eggs.
Government agencies of various sorts are involved in lots of forestry work, mostly for the good, as a lot of management activities wouldn't happen without cost-share support. And government land management agencies do lots and lots of management contracting. I'm not sure PCT work would exist very much without the helping hand of government.
I am often asked about the near alphabet-soup of forestry cost-share programs. WHIP, EQIP, CRP, CREP, state level ones, etc. I tell people the programs all run in peaks and valleys of funding that are hard to see from the outside. Right now, EQIP seems to be at a peak of funding, so if anyone is thinking about a need for PCT work on a stand, I would approach your local NRCS office about it.
Last year I did some Loblolly PCT on wet ground at $175 / acre on an "experimental" block. The field-level guys that manage the property loved it. Though they spend more like $400 / acre, or a bit more, to plant the same land, they couldn't get the higher managers to approve more of the work or further use of that management style. Clearcut and replant is how they have always done it, so that's how they will keep doing it.
Perhaps as stands with improved Loblolly genetics reach final harvest age, this will change, as the genetic quality of the seed coming down will be better than natural seed was a few decades ago. Also, some planting site-prep techniques in the south-east are "under review", shall we say, by the Corps of Engineers and environmental groups due to connections to water quality rules. This also might lead to an increase in seed cuts and PCT management.
What I have yet to discover for the ubiquitous Loblolly Pine, is some correlation between site fertility, age of seedling regeneration, and efficiency of PCT production. It obviously can't be done via pulling seedlings out of the ground when they are just a few months old, nor can you accomplish much when the trees are up towards ten years old. I'm thinking the "sweet spot" is about age 5, but that is just a guess. Some research on an ideal age to do the work would be pretty helpful for everyone.
Government agencies of various sorts are involved in lots of forestry work, mostly for the good, as a lot of management activities wouldn't happen without cost-share support. And government land management agencies do lots and lots of management contracting. I'm not sure PCT work would exist very much without the helping hand of government.
I am often asked about the near alphabet-soup of forestry cost-share programs. WHIP, EQIP, CRP, CREP, state level ones, etc. I tell people the programs all run in peaks and valleys of funding that are hard to see from the outside. Right now, EQIP seems to be at a peak of funding, so if anyone is thinking about a need for PCT work on a stand, I would approach your local NRCS office about it.
Last year I did some Loblolly PCT on wet ground at $175 / acre on an "experimental" block. The field-level guys that manage the property loved it. Though they spend more like $400 / acre, or a bit more, to plant the same land, they couldn't get the higher managers to approve more of the work or further use of that management style. Clearcut and replant is how they have always done it, so that's how they will keep doing it.
Perhaps as stands with improved Loblolly genetics reach final harvest age, this will change, as the genetic quality of the seed coming down will be better than natural seed was a few decades ago. Also, some planting site-prep techniques in the south-east are "under review", shall we say, by the Corps of Engineers and environmental groups due to connections to water quality rules. This also might lead to an increase in seed cuts and PCT management.
What I have yet to discover for the ubiquitous Loblolly Pine, is some correlation between site fertility, age of seedling regeneration, and efficiency of PCT production. It obviously can't be done via pulling seedlings out of the ground when they are just a few months old, nor can you accomplish much when the trees are up towards ten years old. I'm thinking the "sweet spot" is about age 5, but that is just a guess. Some research on an ideal age to do the work would be pretty helpful for everyone.
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
this^^^ is what i was trying to say. the foresters know its a problem but are powerless to change it. them guys [and gals] are doing the best they can with the tools they have. at least that is my observation here......i cannot say the same for private foresters i have delt with. wich is a limited amount.
newforest, i'm glad to hear some one talk about long leaf, do you have any pics of mature longleaf? also, in your experience, what specie is heart pine? i do not believe it is lob, or there is something here entirely different. it is just about rare to find one now except for along creeks.
I have quite a collection of pictures of Longleaf actually, it is one of my favorite species to work with. I particularly enjoy pointing out Lightwood stumps to people on wet ground, where Longleaf supposedly "won't grow". I had a nice blog to post things on but the hosting company pulled the plug on that service and I haven't rebuilt it yet. I will some day.
Heart Pine boards mostly came from Shortleaf Pine - I think, but I also think they could have been milled from several of the southern Pine species. I am only in the south in the winter so I'm not that dialed in to the history of it. One of my friends in Georgia lives in a house mostly built in the late 18th century. The walls of several rooms are made of Heart Pine boards running horizontally, which are 18 ~ 24" wide. His house is possibly worth more if it were taken apart than it is standing.
Heart Pine boards mostly came from Shortleaf Pine - I think, but I also think they could have been milled from several of the southern Pine species. I am only in the south in the winter so I'm not that dialed in to the history of it. One of my friends in Georgia lives in a house mostly built in the late 18th century. The walls of several rooms are made of Heart Pine boards running horizontally, which are 18 ~ 24" wide. His house is possibly worth more if it were taken apart than it is standing.
treeslayer2003
Addicted to ArboristSite
we have short leaf, also virginia so yes i know the difference. not many shortleaf left either.......no one cares to even talk about it.
the old pines, my father called old growth. they have a different bark and overall form is different. the middle of the stump never rots, i have seen them with crosscut saw marks and can see that an axe made the front cut. i cannot prove those stumps are the same tree but i suspect so. when i do see one, its a big one. immediately notice a much stronger smell than typical lob and they have a definite heart, where as lob generally doesn't have one.
had a guy tell me the stumps were cypress or white ceder..........well i never saw either grow on top of a sand hill around here. but have see the old pine grow on hills.
the old pines, my father called old growth. they have a different bark and overall form is different. the middle of the stump never rots, i have seen them with crosscut saw marks and can see that an axe made the front cut. i cannot prove those stumps are the same tree but i suspect so. when i do see one, its a big one. immediately notice a much stronger smell than typical lob and they have a definite heart, where as lob generally doesn't have one.
had a guy tell me the stumps were cypress or white ceder..........well i never saw either grow on top of a sand hill around here. but have see the old pine grow on hills.
I will be planting Short Leaf in Kentucky late next week probably. It is still fairly common in the Piedmont region, but very rare on the Coastal Plain.
Short Leaf has a resinous stump like Longleaf, but not quite as high a concentration of rosin.
Atlantic White Cedar (Chamaecyparis sp. - I forget the second part of the name), sometimes locally called Juniper though unrelated to the true Juniper species, anyway the stumps of those don't rot either and sometimes they are exposed after a light ground fire. We did an AWC planting at Pocosin Lakes Wildlife Refuge after a fire and parts of the site looked like it was covered with bones from all the AWC stumps and logs that could be seen after the fire.
You can check ranges for every tree species here:
http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/data/little/
Battled the Loblolly again today; counted the rings on a cookie - 8 years old. Sad to be doing this work several growing seasons too late. Doubt I even made 1/2 an acre today - too many briers.
I probably released a half-dozen Short Leaf on the dry part of the site, just for variety. There is even a Pond Pine on the property, pretty rare to see 4 native pines on one site in North Carolina.
Short Leaf has a resinous stump like Longleaf, but not quite as high a concentration of rosin.
Atlantic White Cedar (Chamaecyparis sp. - I forget the second part of the name), sometimes locally called Juniper though unrelated to the true Juniper species, anyway the stumps of those don't rot either and sometimes they are exposed after a light ground fire. We did an AWC planting at Pocosin Lakes Wildlife Refuge after a fire and parts of the site looked like it was covered with bones from all the AWC stumps and logs that could be seen after the fire.
You can check ranges for every tree species here:
http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/data/little/
Battled the Loblolly again today; counted the rings on a cookie - 8 years old. Sad to be doing this work several growing seasons too late. Doubt I even made 1/2 an acre today - too many briers.
I probably released a half-dozen Short Leaf on the dry part of the site, just for variety. There is even a Pond Pine on the property, pretty rare to see 4 native pines on one site in North Carolina.
SliverPicker
ArboristSite Guru
Ponderosa Pine? Or is it actually Pond Pine?
SliverPicker
ArboristSite Guru
Thanks for that. I've never heard the name before.
I see a lot more of it happening in the Northeast US & Canada than on the left coast. Most of it is done with clearing saws along the lines of Stihl FS450-560 brush saws with chisel blades, and it usually happens once trees hit around 6' or so. It really is a great method of forest management. The end result is higher quality timber.
