Professional Cabling in Large Trees

[jomoco]

jomoco i thought you said you invented the friction saver?

The leather cambium saver was invented by me in 1991, introduced on the market in 92, and featured on the cover of arbor age magazine in the june 92 issue.

The ringed friction saver was invented and introduced on the market many years later by another innovative fellow I haven't met.

jomoco

 

[jomoco]

Either client may disagree with that premise or your accountant if not paid for the billable hours.....

3 days x 2 men @ $1600.00 per day

$4800.00 to install 4 cables

$1200.00 per cable

That sound about the way it went down?

Doing it right shouldn't take that long if done by industry standards. If you think you are setting industry standards, well...then that is debatable on this forum, isn't it?

I'm not sure exactly what you're driving at here Treevet, as just about any idiot can string a cable between two limbs in 30 minutes easy, and it looks real pretty until a professional has to cut it out and do it right 5-10 years later.

Apparently it's appalling to you that I get paid 5 grand to clean up and cut out amateur cabling and install 4 new and necessary cables properly over 3 days time.

I'm torn between being sad that such slip shod cabling gets done in this country, and being glad that it happens to contrast my work against.

I worked that Moreton bay fig in question alone since it was fenced off from the public.

The typical commercial rush and haste to get things done fast is not conducive to real quality tree care or safety in general.

This biz is in a cheap labor fed rush to the bottom, and I'm afraid you'll have to excuse me if I take the exact opposite approach by charging premium coin for delivering the highest quality tree care I possibly can.

Why don't you post a few pics of your cabling instead of trying to yank my chain friend.

jomoco

 

[jomoco]

Today's cabling pics on San Diego bay.

 

[jomoco]

And of course my favorite pic of the day.

 

[treesandsurf]

Let's bring the time/money debate to an accounting forum, huh? If Jomoco is doing sound, quality work then who cares what he is capable of charging?

It seems more an attempt to punch holes in something, and the only thing he's left open is his pay scale, so that got attacked.

Great work, inspiring to see attention to detail.

jp

 

[treevet]

Let's bring the time/money debate to an accounting forum, huh? If Jomoco is doing sound, quality work then who cares what he is capable of charging?

It seems more an attempt to punch holes in something, and the only thing he's left open is his pay scale, so that got attacked.

Great work, inspiring to see attention to detail.

jp

Rubbish! You need to get your head out of a hole and read the thread before drawing conclusions. It was MY assertion that the cost should be approx 4800.00 given the time spent. My issue and other's is with the perfection of alignment and whether it is warranted given the time spent and the related costs.

Did you really charge this much for this job? $5000.00? 4 cables? Wasn't this a city tree? UFB would have an issue with paying outlandish fees for a job that was done unnecessarily to the installer's standards that did not conform to national standards. That excessive money would be allocated to other tree projects and materials. I sit on my town's Urban Forestry Board and am qualified to make this assessment. My board would be reluctant to pay this bill.

I am waiting for ANSI Standards to review them but I do not feel this obsessive adherence to nut to nut alignment is warranted esp. given the costs incurred in this endeavor. I also feel the length of the wound you are causing is much more invasive and destructive than it needs to be. I have probably installed around 3000 cables in my 40 years so I am not speaking out of ignorance.

If the tree had a stable, balanced load pulling on the anchors then maybe perfect alignment would mean something. However limbs swirl and move laterally as a matter of course. Limbs are never perfectly balanced. Also at times he is adding redirectional rings and secondary cables pulling sideways that make this perfection of alignment also moot. Where are the prevailing winds, what side of the fault is weakest, etc.

Not trying to "yank his chain" but rather have a discussion which is the reason for this forum now isn't it. This is why we have chosen a standards developing organization (ANSI) and a committee that is a group of qualified arborists to develop these standards. Otherwise if some individual were to take this as their own mission then their motive may be the almighty dollar.

You told me why not show some of my work. Well what we would have just as your pictures is an eyebolt through a tree with an attachment (cable) running to another similar set up. Pictures do not tell the story and you have to be on the ground and in the canopy to make these assessments of just where to support the limbs. And it is NEVER a perfect set up. The pictures you show and the videos mean little or nothing other than the expertise of the anchors. If you have to invent something my inclination would be to go with a treatment to make the cable system last longer such as a tar or something to correct degrading zinc coating (galvanization). This is the weakest link in the longevity IMO, not something being a "c" hair out of perfect alignment.

 

[jomoco]

I'd love to share with you how the "Authorities" are showing their interest in my work Treevet, but you have a way of making me not give a hoot what you or your donned "authority" think of my precision in following ANSI standards.

Read the standards and adhere to them for the reasons they're written instead of guesstimating for decades and calling it close enough.

Your philosophy deserves the chinese junk it buys.

jomoco

 

[Ekka]

Jomoco,

If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.

Limbs like this should be propped.

 

[treevet]

Jomoco,

If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.

This is exactly why I advocate (can only speak for myself) the "boxed in" system when the opp. presents itself as opposed to the ring/cog system Jomoco is so fond of. When boxed in the cable system restricts the lateral movement or even eliminates it and the "cupboard door" doesn't rotate in the wind encouraging the base of the limb to tear out as a socket.

 

[jomoco]

Jomoco,

If this horizontal limb only has one cable to basically support the weight then it's likely to experience "cupboard door failure". That's where the limb tears out by rotating around the trunk.

Limbs like this should be propped.

I don't doubt your observation holds true for certain species you have experience with Ekka.

However I have not seen any cabled pines affected as you describe in torries, stone or alleppo.

I don't quite see how a branch supported by cable from high above would not still form reaction wood to prevent rotational failure as normally occurs

However I have seen all 3 species of these pines fail in the hot summer months when the laterals twist and droop, but never at the trunk branch junction, absent included bark faults. These failures generally occur at some point in the lateral wood itself at the 1/3 to 1/2 point where the wood grain itself twists, fails and droops, but seldom detaches completely.

This very common hot summertime branch failure in these species of pine make them prime candidates for cabing here in socal.

That said, one of the torries I'm currently re-cabling had a huge branch failure about a year and a half ago that was the direct result of a large mis-aligned cable and eyebolt that twisted that leader each day in the onshore wind until it was weakened structurally and failed.

It was this event occurring that led to me being called to perform an evaluation of the trees and cabling, and give an estimate to perform remedial cabling in both trees.

Many bids were given on these torries by the major tree firms here, and each one except mine recommended removal of these magnificent old trees.

Rather ironic that a removal specialist would be the one to save them by cabling them properly.

jomoco

 

[treevet]

Cables can certainly cause failure instead of preventing one. When stressed they may torque the supported limb away from its connection to the stem. The alignment that is at issue is the balance from the anchor to the branch being supported though and not the perfection of the hole in the support limb to the limb being supported. There may very well be no applicable support available period. It happens all the time. Other remedial attempts may or may not then be considered.

As for the ANSI standards mentioned earlier....the highest value to the arborist may just be enacted during a law suit aimed at the arborist in the event of injury or property damage loss due to failure of one of their systems. They may not be at blame (extreme wind event, etc.) but if they are adhering to ANSI standards then they will look much better in front of a jury of citizens or a judge.

 

[jomoco]

Today's pics of old torrey pines on San Diego bay.

 

[treeseer]

Cute burl on that 4th one. Nice pics looking up into the crown too.

It's a damning datum on our industry that the other companies wanted to whack them. Hack consultants; stupid to kill what we are expected to maintain. :monkey:

 

[(WLL)]

Today's pics of old torrey pines on San Diego bay.

if the building and pine were mine i'd let her fall on the building before i had ta saw her up for lumber. what a cool old tree

 

[(WLL)]

I don't doubt your observation holds true for certain species you have experience with Ekka.

However I have not seen any cabled pines affected as you describe in torries, stone or alleppo.

I don't quite see how a branch supported by cable from high above would not still form reaction wood to prevent rotational failure as normally occurs

However I have seen all 3 species of these pines fail in the hot summer months when the laterals twist and droop, but never at the trunk branch junction, absent included bark faults. These failures generally occur at some point in the lateral wood itself at the 1/3 to 1/2 point where the wood grain itself twists, fails and droops, but seldom detaches completely.

This very common hot summertime branch failure in these species of pine make them prime candidates for cabing here in socal.

That said, one of the torries I'm currently re-cabling had a huge branch failure about a year and a half ago that was the direct result of a large mis-aligned cable and eyebolt that twisted that leader each day in the onshore wind until it was weakened structurally and failed.

It was this event occurring that led to me being called to perform an evaluation of the trees and cabling, and give an estimate to perform remedial cabling in both trees.

Many bids were given on these torries by the major tree firms here, and each one except mine recommended removal of these magnificent old trees.

Rather ironic that a removal specialist would be the one to save them by cabling them properly.

jomoco

:agree2:

 

[(WLL)]

im not sure how many cables are going in but id say she is a good canadate for lightning protection

 

[oldirty]

Cute burl on that 4th one. Nice pics looking up into the crown too.

It's a damning datum on our industry that the other companies wanted to whack them. Hack consultants; stupid to kill what we are expected to maintain. :monkey:

hey jomoco. what were the reasons given to the property owner for take down? how did you talk them into keeping the tree and paying gooood money for the cables?

as much as i love a good takedown i have grown rather fond of the prune/preservation aspect of the game. actually more of an appreciation now that i climb a rope just as well as i spike.

i cant claim to know jack about the science of all that **** but it looks good to me.


btw jomoco i asked about the friction saver because i couldnt help but notice that your true blue was going bareback in that tree.

 

[jomoco]

btw jomoco i asked about the friction saver because i couldnt help but notice that your true blue was going bareback in that tree.

Which tree OD?

Thems fightin words OD.

I do not set climbing lines without cambium savers on them!

Even when I'm removing them!

Particularly in old sticky Torrey pines that I'm being well paid to cable and save!

Take it back, prove the accusation, or risk my wrath fellow climbing student!

The noive!

jomoco

 

[oldirty]

Which tree OD?

Thems fightin words OD.

I do not set climbing lines without cambium savers on them!

Even when I'm removing them!

Particularly in old sticky Torrey pines that I'm being well paid to cable and save!

Take it back, prove the accusation, or risk my wrath fellow climbing student!

The noive!

jomoco

2nd pic post 85. lol

and i guess i was talking about them torries.

 

[jomoco]

2nd pic post 85. lol

and i guess i was talking about them torries.

An honest mistake on your part OD, that's my primary tree entrance line that gets me to my work line, and they both have CS's on them, though they're not readily visible in the pic.

That same rope is in the same tree in the same spot right now, with a CS on it as I type this.

So I'll let you slide on your blasphemous false accusation OD, this time.LOL.

jomoco