Proof of Concept, or does this exist???

[Veramacor]

Hi all, Name is Jeff - brand spanking new to the site. I've been following the milling posts for the past few days. I'm real keen on the chain saw mill concept. To me its the best way to get into milling because of the low cost of a chainsaw and a csm like the Alaskan.

I see one of the bigger problems with milling large logs is getting them off the ground to a comfortable milling level. I'm an owner of a bad back and milling at a comfortable height is quite important to me and I assume it is to others on AboristSite.

I've seen the Logosol and its crank system, but the price is still to high for me at this point. I like to work with dimensional wood anyway and am looking to build my own "poor man's logosol".

I'm thinking of building it entirely out of treated 4x4s, even the ramp. With a cant hook rolling up the ramp I would think is manageable, but keeping the log from sliding down would be hard! I've thought about it and what I came up with is an idea that

#1 I have never seen applied or haven't looked hard enough

#2 Think it might actually work.

The attachment PDF file shows what I'm dreaming up. Picture a log being rolled up a ramp by a cant hook. The ramp is made of 2 4x4s in parallel. To keep the log from rolling down the ramp, I thought maybe a bracket that houses a bar connected to a spring might keep the log from rolling down the ramp.

As the Log runs over the bracket, the bar compresses down to parallell with the ramp. After the log 'gets past' the bar, the bar would 'flip up' because of the spring in side the bracket housing that its attached to (kind of like small a garage door spring)

If this setup actually would work, it would be relatively inexpensive to build (specially if you are milling your own 4x4s!).

Some lag bolts, screws, lumber and this bracket mechanism and I think you could build it for under $100 easy.

Consider this a public domain invention for y'all out there if this is not out there. Would anyone be willing to try and help me pursue this idea? Calling out all you metal fabricators!

Or, am I just all wet?

Jeff

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've got a bad back too, and think rolling a log up the ramp would be worse then kneeling on the ground.

A 36 in x 8 ft oak log wieghs around 3500# if my math is right.

((3.141x2.25)x8)x62)=3506.017401

I don't think your stops would have to be so large, as depicted I think they would interfere more then help. So have more of them closer together on a longer ramp.

I don't think 2x4's would work.

What would the holding capacity of your "cradle" be? A 12 ft log is 5259#.

Can you roll it easy in the cradle as well as lock it down?

 

[aquan8tor]

I agree on both points. I think you could get away with even something as simple as a board that pivots on a steel pin, and would sit flush as the log is rolled over--it pushes the board up. as the log is pushed over, gravity would allow the board to come back to a resting position, with enough of the board above the diagonal surface to allow the log to momentarily rest. You'd need a block positioned along the bottom edge of the diagonal board (which I think should be a minimum of 2x10", if not 2x12. I wouldn't let the log remain there with either setup. In the logosol video, the homemade ramp system looks like it is made of 2x12's. 2x4's would snap with a big log. Better to be safe than sorry, especially if you're loading logs by yourself. no sense in being crushed!

 

[Veramacor]

The pivot board is a good idea. Less complicated than a spring/bracket.


Also the 2 x12s for the weight support is another good point. Much more doable in terms of fabrication. Steal plate for the 'teeter totter'?

Would you double up the 2x12s as well (four in all)?

 

[aquan8tor]

If they are stabilized, I think that 2 would be enough for all but the largest logs. Some may disagree. I think the steel plates would help as well. Also important would be lock nuts on the end of the bolts holding them in, or pivot pins; whichever you use. You just dont want them backing out b/c of the repetitive swinging back/forth from loading logs. The animation of the logosol one is quite good. It shows cross pieces, etc. Good ideas. I always like to error on the side of overbuilding things. It might cost a little bit more, but safety is priceless.

 

[Ianab]

Dont know whether your idea will work or not.. but it would probably be easier to winch the logs up the ramp. Attach two cables to the top of the ramp and run them down the ramp and UNDER the log and join then together on the far side of the log. Now your winch is attached to the mill on the other side. Run the winch cable down OVER the log and connect it to the other cables. Now start winding.

Advantages
- Geared boat winch will let you roll a pretty big log up a ramp.
- If you get tired, flick on the brake and have a rest, dont have to worry about log rolling back
- Safety, if something goes wrong (ramp breaks or log comes loose) you are on the other side of the mill, away from the heavy falling log.

I believe you can build your mill out of timber, thats how it was done in the old days, but you want to build it as sturdy as possible. But I agree with the guys about using heavier timbers, especially for the ramp.

Cheers

Ian

 

[jomoco]

sneaky solution to your problem

It seems to me that the weak point in your design concept is using a cant hook to move the log up the ramp. ( which needs to be a little more robust )

A sneaky and simple solution would be to dig a 5ft long trench at the base of the ramp in the exact middle so that you could take a bull rope run it through a pulley anchored at the top of the platform, run it down the ramp to the log, take about ten or so wraps around the middle of the log, and secure it with a timber hitch knot. The trench you've dug will facilitate being able to pass the rope under the middle of the log to make your wraps.

Any number of devices will allow you to pull-roll the log up the ramp, winch, come along, even a hand crank capstan such as used on boat trailers.

This low tech method used in conjunction with your proposed design, should make a low budget sawyer grin.

jomoco

 

[woodshop]

It seems to me that the weak point in your design concept is using a cant hook to move the log up the ramp. ( which needs to be a little more robust )

Lot of good feedback here from people. On this point I agree with jomoco, and also as ianab implied, that the idea of pushing a log that weighs over a thousand pounds up a ramp with a cant hook, and that you are BEHIND and somewhat UNDER that thing as it nears the top, scares me a bit. "Sh&t happens" as they say. Log slips back over one of your pivots, YOU slip as your pushing it and log comes back at you etc etc. Wet oak is around 50 lbs a cubic foot. Do the math as John Paul did, and you can see that logs get very heavy once you get past the 12 inches dia. 12" 8 ft log = 400 lbs, 16" close to 700 lbs, a 20 inch log is over a half a ton. If you happen to get a half ton coming back down that ramp at you, you better get out of the way because it would snap your leg in two in a heartbeat. That said, I like your idea. I would certainly over-engineer it though.

If all you want to do is get the log up off the ground so it's high enough to mill without bending over, an alternative is the way I do it, using a floor jack to get it up onto sturdy horses. I described how in this thread:

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=37849

 

[aggiewoodbutchr]

Howdy and welcome to AS!

I was going to suggest you look at Woodshop's posts but I see he beat me to the punch.

If you build a stationary platform, how do you plan to get the logs to it?

 

[LarryTheCableGuy]

Rather than having 4x4's or whatever span from the top to the bottom, build the "ramps" as pony walls (with studs at 16" on center) with the top plates making up the ramp.

.

 

[Rodney Sinclair]

I've got to go along with the "parbucking" method here. I don't like the ideal of being behind a log of any size going up a ramp. And that is what the man was talking about. Not lifting a square cant up and putting a fancy saw horse under it. I tried lifting a "round" log up once with a railroad jack. Didn't work out so well and I will not try it again.

Rodney

 

[aquan8tor]

It seems to me that the weak point in your design concept is using a cant hook to move the log up the ramp. ( which needs to be a little more robust )

A sneaky and simple solution would be to dig a 5ft long trench at the base of the ramp in the exact middle so that you could take a bull rope run it through a pulley anchored at the top of the platform, run it down the ramp to the log, take about ten or so wraps around the middle of the log, and secure it with a timber hitch knot. The trench you've dug will facilitate being able to pass the rope under the middle of the log to make your wraps.

Any number of devices will allow you to pull-roll the log up the ramp, winch, come along, even a hand crank capstan such as used on boat trailers.

This low tech method used in conjunction with your proposed design, should make a low budget sawyer grin.

jomoco

I'm rusty on my knots. And I was a boy scout. shame on me. SO, I can see this working if the rope goes back to the bottom of the platform and is anchored there somehow, with the other end travelling in loops around the log, then to the platform crank. If the log were sufficiently heavy, the crank would just end up lifting the entire setup itself. Does this make sense? I might not be understanding your idea fully. Otherwise, I've got an idea for this myself.....

 

[aquan8tor]

It seems to me that the weak point in your design concept is using a cant hook to move the log up the ramp. ( which needs to be a little more robust )

A sneaky and simple solution would be to dig a 5ft long trench at the base of the ramp in the exact middle so that you could take a bull rope run it through a pulley anchored at the top of the platform, run it down the ramp to the log, take about ten or so wraps around the middle of the log, and secure it with a timber hitch knot. The trench you've dug will facilitate being able to pass the rope under the middle of the log to make your wraps.

Any number of devices will allow you to pull-roll the log up the ramp, winch, come along, even a hand crank capstan such as used on boat trailers.

This low tech method used in conjunction with your proposed design, should make a low budget sawyer grin.

jomoco

I'm rusty on my knots. And I was a boy scout. shame on me. SO, I can see this working if the rope goes back to the bottom of the platform and is anchored there somehow, with the other end travelling in loops around the log, then to the platform crank. If the log were sufficiently heavy, the crank would just end up lifting the entire setup itself. Does this make sense? I might not be understanding your idea fully. Otherwise, I've got an idea for this myself.....

 

[aquan8tor]

It seems to me that the weak point in your design concept is using a cant hook to move the log up the ramp. ( which needs to be a little more robust )

A sneaky and simple solution would be to dig a 5ft long trench at the base of the ramp in the exact middle so that you could take a bull rope run it through a pulley anchored at the top of the platform, run it down the ramp to the log, take about ten or so wraps around the middle of the log, and secure it with a timber hitch knot. The trench you've dug will facilitate being able to pass the rope under the middle of the log to make your wraps.

Any number of devices will allow you to pull-roll the log up the ramp, winch, come along, even a hand crank capstan such as used on boat trailers.

This low tech method used in conjunction with your proposed design, should make a low budget sawyer grin.

jomoco

I'm rusty on my knots. And I was a boy scout. shame on me. SO, I can see this working if the rope goes back to the bottom of the platform and is anchored there somehow, with the other end travelling in loops around the log, then to the platform crank. If the log were sufficiently heavy, the crank would just end up lifting the entire setup itself. Does this make sense? I might not be understanding your idea fully. Otherwise, I've got an idea for this myself.....

 

[klickitatsacket]

when I had my mill. I had a ramp and cradle built from 8" logs about 40" tall. I used 2 truck straps and a hand crank boat winch. The straps were fixed under the cradle at either end. The winch was fixed in the center on the other side of the cradle oposite the ramp. I then placed both straps down the ramp and then rolled my log over the ends of the straps, using a spreader I hooked the straps to the spreader. then I would hook the winch cable to the spreader and crank the log up the ramp.

 

[bookerdog]

hotsaw

when I had my mill. I had a ramp and cradle built from 8" logs about 40" tall. I used 2 truck straps and a hand crank boat winch. The straps were fixed under the cradle at either end. The winch was fixed in the center on the other side of the cradle oposite the ramp. I then placed both straps down the ramp and then rolled my log over the ends of the straps, using a spreader I hooked the straps to the spreader. then I would hook the winch cable to the spreader and crank the log up the ramp.

Hey dean how's it going havn't made it up there yet. Will try sometime in NOV.

 

[woodshop]

And that is what the man was talking about. Not lifting a square cant up and putting a fancy saw horse under it. I tried lifting a "round" log up once with a railroad jack. Didn't work out so well and I will not try it again.
Rodney

I guess it's hard to see in any of my pics, but that orange round jack extension I use when lifting not only nice neat square cants, but yes also round logs, has four metal pegs sticking up which kindof cradle that log and keep it from slipping off that floor jack. Not sure about using a railroad jack, not sure what exactly that is, but I have never had a round log slip off my jack when lifting it up to set on my "fancy" saw horses.

btw, that said, I also like the parbuckling method. If I had a permenant setup and a way to get logs to that spot, and I needed to raise heavy logs up to a platform or some such, that might be the route I would take also. Didn't sawyer rob have a pic of somebody using that method to get a log up onto a trailer?