Protruding western cedar roots

[gebo]

I have a western cedar tree about 50 ft tall with some of its roots protruding from the ground into my lawn. I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm afraid to cut those roots as it might either cause the tree to die or tip over at a wind storm. I was also thinking of filling up the lawn area with extra soil to cover up the roots though that would make the ground of the lawn area pretty uneven with its surroundings. What would the arborists advise in this case?
Thanks.

 

[treeseer]

What would the arborists advise in this case?

1. Post pictures so we can advise you more intelligently. 2. Mulch

 

[Ekka]

Hi

Just a few questions to get "tuned in" as to the size of the problem.

How far away from the trunk of the tree are the protruding roots?

What is the diameter of the tree at 4' high and the approximate height?

How far above the lawn are the roots protruding and for what distance?

How far from the trunk of the tree are the protruding roots?

What do you think the age of the tree is?

All these things influence the options available so anything you can inform us of would be highly appreciated ... oh, and as Treeseer said, pics would be fantastic.

 

[gebo]

The roots are protruding about 10-12 ft from the trunk at various hight, as you see in the attached pics. The highest near the trunk is about 6" from the ground. The trunk diameter at 4 ft is about 30 inches. The age of this tree is hard to tell. I bought the house in '88 and then the tree was maybe half the current height with no protruding roots then. The house was built in '79 and I assume the tree was already there then. I took another look at the tree and I think I thoroughly underestimated its height in my first post. This sucker maybe even 90 ft tall though I am not very good in estimating height of trees. I attached a pic with a distant view but even that could not fit the very top of the tree. To get an idea of the root sizes, I included a measuring tape with Pic10 and Pic11. The extended part of the tape on Pic 10 is 40", on Pic11 it's 12".

 

[treeseer]

I'm a big fan of Mr. John Deere, and it breaks my heart to think of the damage that those ugly tree roots have done to that fine mowing equipment. If you remove those roots the tree may survive, but consider what will happen:

More roots will grow into that place.

Turf will still fight with tree roots for water and nutrients, and lose.

Tree will lose support on uphill side, and tend to fall downhill toward street. You may get sued for damages and lose, since cutting roots is well known to cause trees to fall over.

Put porous soil between roots, then stepping stones/fieldstone, then mulch around them. The investment is well worth it, and small relative to the value of the tree and the property. Contact www.plantamnesty.org for a local professional to care for the tree.

 

[Ekka]

Hmm a tough one.

The site slopes down hill toward the road. There is also a sideways slope down the street. When you consider the slopes it's fair to say that the exposed tree roots are pretty much on the opposite or uphill side. What would make it even more interesting is if the prevailing wind was downhill to.

You see, tree roots work best under tension, like rope, so they tend to grow more on the windward or uphill side. Now it's those very roots that are giving you grief.

The bulk of a trees roots are in the top 1.5' of soil, so those roots are pretty essential for stability at that distance from the trunk.

Really, like Treeseer wrote, you'd have to re-landscape to accomodate the roots, try to think other than lawn to prevent re-occurance of the problem.

Or you could remove the tree, grind down the stump and roots and start with some thing new.

 

[gebo]

Hmm a tough one.

What would make it even more interesting is if the prevailing wind was downhill to.

You see, tree roots work best under tension, like rope, so they tend to grow more on the windward or uphill side. Now it's those very roots that are giving you grief.

The bulk of a trees roots are in the top 1.5' of soil, so those roots are pretty essential for stability at that distance from the trunk.

Actually, you are guessing right about the prevailing wind patterns; it blows toward the street. Now that explains t a layman why those roots happen to have grown so strong on the house side. Never thought of that one. I was not really leaning toward cutting off those roots, just didn't know what to do with it. I was also wondering how long I could expect them to keep growing. Don't they have some limit? By the way, in my area there is a pretty solid clay base under a shallow soil layer, so that may be why those roots are so close to the top. They have nowhere else to go to get the nurishment.

You've probably noticed that other, weaker root, too, about 6 ft away from the main cedar root which does not seem to be connected to the cedar and I'm wondering which tree or bush it belongs to because I don't have anything else there to justify such a relatively large root. I just might decide to cut that one out.

Thanks to both of you for your expert advice.

 

[treeseer]

You've probably noticed that other, weaker root, too, about 6 ft away from the main cedar root which does not seem to be connected to the cedar and I'm wondering which tree or bush it belongs to because I don't have anything else there to justify such a relatively large root. I just might decide to cut that one out.

Yes that root can be pruned. You should be able to tell what plant it is from; cedar roots have cedar bark, etc.

 

[Ekka]

I was also wondering how long I could expect them to keep growing. Don't they have some limit? By the way, in my area there is a pretty solid clay base under a shallow soil layer, so that may be why those roots are so close to the top. They have nowhere else to go to get the nurishment.

Tree roots just keep growing, they can grow far further than the drip line of the tree, up to 7 times and even further in some species. Of course they'll grow in dia size as well.

Now, regarding clay soils, we have a lot of that here. It really comes down to species selection to suit existing conditions. Some trees don't mind heavy soils others hate them.

But in general, tree roots need air, yep, just like us. So in heavy soils such as clay there is a lot less air in the soil, consequently roots tend to be closer to the surface ... just think the opposite such as sand, plenty of air and roots stay a little deeper. So really, your in bit of a whammy, increasing the soil level will encourage more surface root growth.

Tree roots sitting in wet boggy conditions can also die and rot, so clay is a real bugger. You could try improving the soil profile but that's not going to solve the immediate problem either.

Looks like your going to be having more garden, mulch is good for trees, kill off the lawn, mulch, some little plants here and there ....

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Simply cover the area with a layer of good soil to just cover the roots, then plant new grass, or increase the size of the mulch beds. It looks like a few wheel barrels of soil would do the trick.
In the mulch beds, just cover with mulch.

 

[gebo]

Simply cover the area with a layer of good soil to just cover the roots, then plant new grass, or increase the size of the mulch beds. It looks like a few wheel barrels of soil would do the trick.
In the mulch beds, just cover with mulch.

Well, that's what I was thinking of doing but Ekka's comment ("increasing the soil level will encourage more surface root growth") kinda' discouraged me. You, two, ought to settle this issue, I think.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

We disagree on almost every subject. His toilet water even spins the opposite direction mine does.
That said, covering the roots with a small amount of soil will be just fine. At some point the roots may re-appear. Just spread some more soil. It's best to add soil over roots a little bit at a time. If you were putting 8 or 10 inches of clay soil, that would be a big problem, in fact, more than 3 or 4 inches is risky, if done over the entire root zone. In your case, it's a small percentage of the total root area. Fill away.
Hope that helps.

 

[Ekka]

We disagree on almost every subject. His toilet water even spins the opposite direction mine does.
That said, covering the roots with a small amount of soil will be just fine. At some point the roots may re-appear. Just spread some more soil. It's best to add soil over roots a little bit at a time. If you were putting 8 or 10 inches of clay soil, that would be a big problem, in fact, more than 3 or 4 inches is risky, if done over the entire root zone. In your case, it's a small percentage of the total root area. Fill away.
Hope that helps.

Since you are on a clay base and leaning toward increasing soil levels I would suggest you use a loamy sand, that will help the clay situation beneath. It would even be beneficial to get a fork and make a bunch of vertical holes so the new soil sinks in to the old, it will improve soil structure.

Mike does agree that the roots will re-appear, you see, they'll prefer the less compacted new soil and have access to air and nutrients ... that's why I suggested just mulching and a garden because that way no-body cares.

So, I do not view increasing the soil level as a permanent fix but rather a temporary fix ... at the end of the day it is your choice and either way it wont hurt the tree.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Time to pick a nit, and disagree with Ekka, yet again.
Adding sand to clay does not help the soil structure. When you add sand to clay, you basically get concrete.
I know what I speak of because my soil is sandy clay. It's some hard stuff, much harder than pure clay, and it doesn't drain one bit better than pure clay. Clay particles are very tiny compared to sand, so the sand particles are just surrounded by clay, no more air pockets than pure clay. The sand just makes it more impervious to shovels and roots.

 

[Ekka]

Will Mr Maas, your experience is contrary to known fact.

Perhaps you'd like to read these links, and I too have heavy clay, and I add sand when ever the opportunity arises.

To form concrete you must have cement. To compact you must have weight. When clay dries the sand is free again. Please read these.

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/20..._tips,_books,_techniques_and_tools/clay_soils

http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/soil-types-structure/ss1192-clay-easier-work.htm

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Well you just try it then. Unless your adding enough sand to the soil that it makes up 50 to 75% of the soil volume, you're just making it worse.
I'll go along with adding organic matter though.
Hows Gebo going to work that huge amount of sand into a clay soil that is full of mature tree roots? Is he going to spread it on top and hope it falls into the soil cracks during drought?
Which brings me to another point of contention. He may want to add soil that is the same as the existing soil, so as not to create a plane of soil which is attractive to more roots. Then he could have the same problem with surface roots sooner.
He could air spade the soil away, shove the roots down and replace the soil with nicer stuff, but come on, just dump some soil on and be done with it. It'll be years before the roots re-appear, if they do at all.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Because everyone like links, even questionable ones like Ekka's, here's one of many I found in about ten seconds of Google searching:

http://www.sunnyfortuna.com/gardening/soil/improving-heavy-soil.htm

It reads, in part:

"There are several common misconceptions about improving clay soil. One is that adding sand to a clay soil will loosen it up and improve it. Adding sand to a clay soil will probably make it harder and more like cement."


Hey, you better email him and let him know about that cement thing you told me!

 

[Ekka]

Well it appears Mr Maas is correct and I have given bad advice ... I have plenty of sand at my place... mainly on top of the lawn where we park.

So, I have to suck eggs now, and I appologise for stirring you up Mr Maas, also Gebo, just goes to show that you can't believe everything you find on the web ... one of those links is from the NSW (govt) dept of Agriculture ... you'd think that was safe.