Rigging knots
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I saw it roll out never used it again.
TreEmergencyB
ArboristSite Guru
I disagree a clove hitch with out a half hitch back up with roll out but i've never seen one with a half hitch back up 'roll out' it just continues to tighten. And i cant see the timber hitch being easier to untie on the ground.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Agreed, marl and running bowline are best for lowering. I always use a marl on anything heavy.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Actually, the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than the clove hitch. Texts always warn of the danger using the timber hitch as well as the clove hitch. I agree though, a clove hitch should always be backed up with a half hitch and I have never seen one fail. Still, I feel the running bowline is a superior knot for rigging. I very seldom use anything else.
TrillPhil
ArboristSite Operative
I've seen a bullrope almost break (you know what I mean, another 50 lbs of weight and it would've snapped instead of leaving one little strand hanging) and the clove hitch be fine. Always easy to untie unless tied backwards... But I don't have much experience and I was taught running bowline, clove and marl... But we just always use a clove hitch with 2 half hitches...
In the bedroom... Running bowline is a little more practical..
In the bedroom... Running bowline is a little more practical..
now for the really challenged "know nothing knot tier"...
like me who can watch it over and over and still knot get it right.
http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
it allows you to frame by frame the knot.
like me who can watch it over and over and still knot get it right.
http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline/index.php?Categ=boating&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
it allows you to frame by frame the knot.
Agreed, marl and running bowline are best for lowering. I always use a marl on anything heavy.
I believe technically (according to JPS anyway), that is considered a half hitch. I always called it a marl too though.
That is actually a clove hitch holding the end of the rope, and marl holding the load when it drops. That should be quite secure, as the marl protects the clove from rolling out.
I don't want to start a p-match over what it the "best" rigging knot. Pointless, especially when you and I agree on so many other points. I like both knots, each for it's own application.
Timber hitch is far more likely to fail if tied improperly, which is why I suspect that so many folks don't like it. They don't do it right one time, ...Ooops!, then they never use it again.
I would like to see a text book that says the timber hitch is more likely to roll out than a clove hitch. ABOK certainly doesn't. Got a quote on that?
BTW, My preferences:
Timber hitch holding a marl for big wood: faster to tie, stronger, easier for GM to untie.
Timber hitch alone: small wood: faster to tie, easier for GM to untie.
Running bowline: best for remotely set rigging. You can push a rope over a distant branch, tie it off, then pull out the slack. Plenty strong, and requires no marl to keep it's strength. On the other hand, if not held by marl, it is unsuitable for attachment close to the end of a branch, because it can fall off the end before the weight sets it tight.
Stilson hitch: Short, fat logs. Very secure, and is tight before the log drops. Tedious to tie and un-tie.
Timber hitch holding a marl for big wood: faster to tie, stronger, easier for GM to untie.
Timber hitch alone: small wood: faster to tie, easier for GM to untie.
Running bowline: best for remotely set rigging. You can push a rope over a distant branch, tie it off, then pull out the slack. Plenty strong, and requires no marl to keep it's strength. On the other hand, if not held by marl, it is unsuitable for attachment close to the end of a branch, because it can fall off the end before the weight sets it tight.
Stilson hitch: Short, fat logs. Very secure, and is tight before the log drops. Tedious to tie and un-tie.
loop, twist, twist, yank...cut branch. It ties quicker than a bowline. Not set properly, it will fall out, but I know how to do it right, see? 
My groundies can untie it faster, and give me the rope quicker. It puts me back to tying the next branch quicker.
I can understand why a lot of guys stick to the knot they know. If that means bowline, that's fine too. I know a guy that has been climbing for at least 15 years. He still ties everything with a stilson. Two wraps, cow-hitch style, followed by a couple of half hitches. Slower than death, especially for just a single branch that could be tied with almost anything. To his credit, he never looses a branch from a poorly tied rope.
I have gone mostly to speedlines now. I give the groundies a port-a-wrap on something nearby (like the chipper, whenever possible!), and clip a loopie onto a carabiner, and slide the branches down as quick as I can. Sometimes it is faster than not roping at all: you can get the branches out of the work zone when it comes down, rather than waiting for the groundies to cut it up or drag it aside. Then...drop a few more beneath the tree while they are working on getting the rope freed up for a few more speedline drops.
My groundies can untie it faster, and give me the rope quicker. It puts me back to tying the next branch quicker.
I can understand why a lot of guys stick to the knot they know. If that means bowline, that's fine too. I know a guy that has been climbing for at least 15 years. He still ties everything with a stilson. Two wraps, cow-hitch style, followed by a couple of half hitches. Slower than death, especially for just a single branch that could be tied with almost anything. To his credit, he never looses a branch from a poorly tied rope.
I have gone mostly to speedlines now. I give the groundies a port-a-wrap on something nearby (like the chipper, whenever possible!), and clip a loopie onto a carabiner, and slide the branches down as quick as I can. Sometimes it is faster than not roping at all: you can get the branches out of the work zone when it comes down, rather than waiting for the groundies to cut it up or drag it aside. Then...drop a few more beneath the tree while they are working on getting the rope freed up for a few more speedline drops.
I guess I should clarify: Really big wood that requires spurring around the tree to tie the timber hitch begs for a running bowline secured with a marl. It's too much work to walk around the trunk to put the twists in the timber hitch in the right places so that it is secure. I'd say anything bigger than 3-4 feet diameter. It kind of depends on how much room there is to throw the tail back around the tree.
Running bowline does not have that problem, as it can be pulled tight from where you were standing when it was tied.
I would be using the bowline in that application out of personal laziness, not because I thought it was better for doing the job. I don't think there is any single hitch stronger than a timber hitch. The only thing stronger is the marl/ half hitch that I put in front of it.
Running bowline does not have that problem, as it can be pulled tight from where you were standing when it was tied.
I would be using the bowline in that application out of personal laziness, not because I thought it was better for doing the job. I don't think there is any single hitch stronger than a timber hitch. The only thing stronger is the marl/ half hitch that I put in front of it.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
Not to worry buddy. That's the great thing about America, we are allowed to disagree.
I hate it when someone takes offense because I don't agree with them on something or thinks that I take offense because they don't agree with me. I am very opinionated and prolly come on a little strong at times because, well, I have been the boss on the job since 94 and it's my way or the highway on my job.
To tell the truth, I have read so much on rigging and knots that I can't remember exactly where I read that. Maybe the TCC? I'll have to look through my books. I have a copy of the TCC around somewhere but have misplaced it at the moment.
Here is the jist of what I remember reading. The timber hitch is THE traditional knot for working in the timber and logging trades, hence the name. It was used for hundreds of years for nearly every hitching application in the trade. However, in more recent years it has been abandoned to a large degree in favor of more functional knots. It was warned that there is the possibility of it rolling out during lowering operations. I have read the same about the clove hitch.
My thoughts are that you would probably be OK with either knot as long as you back it up with a half hitch which will force it to be pulled along the ideal axis of the rope. I have had a timber hitch fail when it was heavily loaded along the wrong axis. It rolled right out. I was using it on a snatch block as a stationary hitch on a tree trunk. Instead of being loaded at a 90 degree angle the block was pulled straight out which caused the knot to fail. With the unpredictability of a log being lowered I could see that potentially becoming a problem with a timber hitch unless it was backed up with a half hitch to force it to be pulled along the correct axis.
The ABOK is a great book, no doubt, but it is a little dated. It recommends a lot of old school knots (especially in the tree surgeon chapter) where other knots have proven to be more functional. When I started out it was common place for the clove hitch to be used as a rigging knot for lowering limbs and chunks. We called it a claw hitch and even more commonly in my circle, a cross claw. I believe it was taught as a cross claw to remind rookie climbers that it needs to be crossed like an X for it to be tied properly. At least that is my best guess. In any event, it has fallen out of favor with most as well.
It was also common place to tie a biner or rope snap on to a life support system with a bowline. These days that is a no no. It has been learned that that knot can roll out as well. Knots and their applications seem to change with the times. And for the good IMO. The trade is continually evolving.
I'll look through my books and see if I can nail down a quote with a source for you but that is the jist of what I remember reading.
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Not to worry buddy. That's the great thing about America, we are allowed to disagree.
I hate it when someone takes offense because I don't agree with them on something or thinks that I take offense because they don't agree with me. I am very opinionated and prolly come on a little strong at times because, well, I have been the boss on the job since 94 and it's my way or the highway on my job.
To tell the truth, I have read so much on rigging and knots that I can't remember exactly where I read that. Maybe the TCC? I'll have to look through my books. I have a copy of the TCC around somewhere but have misplaced it at the moment.
Here is the jist of what I remember reading. The timber hitch is THE traditional knot for working in the timber and logging trades, hence the name. It was used for hundreds of years for nearly every hitching application in the trade. However, in more recent years it has been abandoned to a large degree in favor of more functional knots. It was warned that there is the possibility of it rolling out during lowering operations. I have read the same about the clove hitch.
My thoughts are that you would probably be OK with either knot as long as you back it up with a half hitch which will force it to be pulled along the ideal axis of the rope. I have had a timber hitch fail when it was heavily loaded along the wrong axis. It rolled right out. I was using it on a snatch block as a stationary hitch on a tree trunk. Instead of being loaded at a 90 degree angle the block was pulled straight out which caused the knot to fail. With the unpredictability of a log being lowered I could see that potentially becoming a problem with a timber hitch unless it was backed up with a half hitch to force it to be pulled along the correct axis.
The ABOK is a great book, no doubt, but it is a little dated. It recommends a lot of old school knots (especially in the tree surgeon chapter) where other knots have proven to be more functional. When I started out it was common place for the clove hitch to be used as a rigging knot for lowering limbs and chunks. We called it a claw hitch and even more commonly in my circle, a cross claw. I believe it was taught as a cross claw to remind rookie climbers that it needs to be crossed like an X for it to be tied properly. At least that is my best guess. In any event, it has fallen out of favor with most as well.
It was also common place to tie a biner or rope snap on to a life support system with a bowline. These days that is a no no. It has been learned that that knot can roll out as well. Knots and their applications seem to change with the times. And for the good IMO. The trade is continually evolving.
I'll look through my books and see if I can nail down a quote with a source for you but that is the jist of what I remember reading.
Bowline with a biner will roll out what kind of rope for this to happen?I have been using it for 36 years hasn't rolled yet and ain't going to.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
There are too many sources on the bowline on a biner topic to list. A quick search should render lots of results. Treeco is correct, any attachment knot used for life support needs to cinch up tight on the biner or snap. I use the scaffold knot as well.
PDQL,
I found my TCC. It says quote:
"Unless the hitch is proceeded by a half hitch this knot is not recommended for tying off limbs for lowering because of it's potential to 'roll out'. Even still, the clove hitch and running bowline perform this latter function better".
I also found this quote worthwhile and thought it would be educational for this thread:
"It is recommended that at least five tucks or turns be made around the standing part for this hitch to function properly".
This is not the text that I was thinking of that went into much more depth on the history and explanation of the timber hitch but it should suffice.
PDQL,
I found my TCC. It says quote:
"Unless the hitch is proceeded by a half hitch this knot is not recommended for tying off limbs for lowering because of it's potential to 'roll out'. Even still, the clove hitch and running bowline perform this latter function better".
I also found this quote worthwhile and thought it would be educational for this thread:
"It is recommended that at least five tucks or turns be made around the standing part for this hitch to function properly".
This is not the text that I was thinking of that went into much more depth on the history and explanation of the timber hitch but it should suffice.
I use a captive eye carabiner guess I should have said that are you familiar with it? http://gmesupply.com/13195-aluminum-captive-carabiner-p-57082.html
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
I believe thirty six years pre-dates captive eye biners.
Yes, it does make a difference that you use captive eye biners but a scaffold hitch would still be better to use than a bowline. An anchor hitch wouldn't fit in the eye of the biner well nor in the eye of a snap.
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