Running saws at part throttle in the cut

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Lol. I did didn't I:) That was the first and only time I have ever milled and didn't want to over heat my pride and joy, lol. I'm just not used to extended cut times. I was admittedly being overly cautious.

Don't worry about it. That is some of the most strenuous thing you can do. Them Austrailian post rippers is what gets me. I think they tear down their saws frequently.

 
IIRC, that was a Granberg chain made for milling. The poor cut finish was because of a poor inexperienced operator, lol!

Here is a demo vid of my little mill ,i am maybe 2/3 throttle in the cut ,you can see how slow i am describing now ,if i go full throttle the bar bounces more and does not seem to be much faster ,and take the big dogs off when milling or you get stuck like i did at the end cutting this kant lol

 
it looks like you have chisel chain by the rough finish in the wood that will load the saw good in the cut ,when i mill i use ripping chain ,it is a lot slower cutting then my chisel ,but on wood i want a nicer finish on it works better for that ,a lot of people will think i mill with a dull chain it is so slow ,but 10 degrees high rakers ,it almost spits sawdust like a skillsaw would produce ,the slower cutting ripping chain revs too high in the cut for me so i back off the gas some ,here is the finish on a piece of cedar ,this was milled with the 660.


It's definitely better to throw some dust milling and back off the trigger for a smoother ride. I only had RMC 36 that I converted to 10 Deg. This stuff with a more aggressive profile mid tooth was throwing flakes but leaving a surface like on the face of this bench. When I used another chain that was toned down, it was smooth like the top of the bench.



 
.......and take the big dogs off when milling or you get stuck like i did at the end cutting this kant lol

I do like that brow beatin' alaskan mill for one aspect; it seems to work well with the dogs on as they ride clear behind the fence. You are making some nice stuff there BTW, Brian.

Something else for the general population here: if you tend to obsess over stuff dangit, don't try milling. Rest assured once you try it and see all the things around your house you can make, you just "cant" get enough.
 
If you look at a carb, you will see an outlet port for idle, and the main high speed outlet, and just beyond the idle port will be a couple of additional holes. These are the idle transfer ports - as the throttle opens and the edge of the throttle plate moves away from the idle port, the air velocity moving past that port falls off. But as the plate opens the edge moves toward the transfer ports, so they get a strong signal and begin to flow. Additionally, the overall flow has now increased enough to start pulling fuel from the main (H) output, but possibly not enough to be well controlled.

Once the throttle is fully open, the edge of the plate is not near either the idle or the transfer ports, so they may flow some but the velocity past them will be low. This is the condition under which you adjust the H screw.

Depending on the carb model, the transfer jets may be controlled by the L screw, or they may be fixed and bypass the L screw.

So the problem is that you have very little control over the mixture at part throttle, and the transfer ports are quite sensitive to the position of the edge of the throttle plate. On the other hand the loading is lower, and so the temperatures/vulnerability should be less too. Part throttle is kind of a crap shoot.

These carbs are really, really crude and do not have the systems that carbs designed for a wide range of throttle positions have.
 
I didn't realize that you were only taking about 6" wide slabs. What about using a 60-70cc with a much smaller mill? Save the bigger setup for only wider cuts.

I milled with my 460 when i broke the crank on my 660 for a while ,in all honesty it had plenty of power ,but the clutch got pretty warm ,it was blueing the drum ,so i leave the 660 on there for everything now ,i start with a log ,make the kants the wide way then stand them up ,the skinny boards are end result ,an 026 would cut those if i hooked it up i am sure
 
I hear what you're saying Chris. You have a far greater understanding of carbs than I do. Here's my question. While this may be a problem in theory, has it ever caused problems with a saw in use? I honestly have no idea.
 
It's definitely better to throw some dust milling and back off the trigger for a smoother ride. I only had RMC 36 that I converted to 10 Deg. This stuff with a more aggressive profile mid tooth was throwing flakes but leaving a surface like on the face of this bench. When I used another chain that was toned down, it was smooth like the top of the bench.



I found similar results ,i have a lot of boards when i started out with the chatter looking cuts ,that chain looks close to mine ,i may have a little less raker even at 40 was way too choppy ,25 is slow ,but smooth ,i run zero on the side plate when grind the chain also instead of 10
 
I hear what you're saying Chris. You have a far greater understanding of carbs than I do. Here's my question. While this may be a problem in theory, has it ever caused problems with a saw in use? I honestly have no idea.

seems like under heavy load the vacuum of the engine pulls more fuel ,i can go through a tank in about 15 min milling ,2-3 passes in a wide board will use a tank of fuel also
 
I hear what you're saying Chris. You have a far greater understanding of carbs than I do. Here's my question. While this may be a problem in theory, has it ever caused problems with a saw in use? I honestly have no idea.
I don't know either Brad, and I wasn't really trying to say one way or the other - just trying to provide some explanation of how it works so people can see what the issue is. I think it could vary a lot from saw to saw and carb to carb.

One thing that may make it less dangerous is that those transfer jets are mainly there to smooth the transition during acceleration, and acceleration requires more fuel. It would make sense if they set them up on the rich side.
 
Milling you are virtually always cutting with the filler caps up and the sump isn't getting rattled around. It's always submerged. It's really the way a saw likes to run. But with the excess dust, the fact that it isn't getting shook out and the human element, you just have to tune in. There is some full throttling and in between peak points, the M-Tronic seems to fill in the gaps just fine. I'm not gonna be surprised at all that once the MS661 C-M is widely available that it will be the chainsaw miller's saw of choice for the next ten years. MS881 C-M?

With limbing and bucking, now you can do a lot of limbing at part throttle. Same thing as ever you are just being conscientious of the needs of the machine but still making it do what you need. I mean, who's gonna drag the brush? It is a lot of intermittent operation with the saw running most of the time. You gotta be realistic. Look at the cut in that GIF in my sig line down there. When I pull the dogs away from the kerf at the end of the cut, 70-80% throttle. That saw doen't need all that juice. And my chisel chain don't need to eat all that extra dirt, lol.
 
Well....I'll throw my hat in the ring too!! LOL!!......You all have voiced valid opinions, IMO........but for the sake of the discussion let me read a passage directly from the Jonsereds 49SP owners manual....this passage is also included in at least the 621 and 70E owners manuals.....and I quote.... "Cutting should always be done at full throttle"........other later model Jonsereds such as the 630 and 670 Supers, 930 Super etc....say it a bit differently ...and I quote..."cutting should be done at high engine speeds" I believe this has way more to do with chain speed and safety rather than wear and tear or the actual power of the saw to do the same job at a lower speed. Lower chain speeds increase the likelihood of the chain "catching or snagging".....especially on smaller stuff like small limbs etc.

I do not always use full rpm to make certain cuts but I also understand the abilities and shortcomings of the 2 cycle engines...from fractional horsepower saw/trimmer engines through the 54, 71, 92 series Detroit Diesels all the way up to 8,000 hp V-16 Colt Pielstiks.....all 2 strokes.....they all have one thing in common...they require rpm to develop workable horsepower......run them under the preferred rpm and you will kill them quicker from carbon/lugging issues by "saving it"........ worse than if you ran them at WOT endlessly.......some engines don't even have a middle ground.

Biggest deal with a saw is chain speed when it comes to safety, ability, handling and the amount of work done at the end of the day....from a mfgr stand point all cutting should be done at WOT.......from a guy cutting wood who fully understands his saw to the point where he knows when he's lugging it or overreving it...use your own judgement...........I do....and have saws/ chain configurations for very specific tasks......like .......I have a 521E Jonsereds with a 16" Sugi and the safest 3/8" safety chain you ever saw which is used to strictly cut 1" dia and up to 4" dia. limbs by12 inches long to feed my small Jotul Cookstove...which runs 8-9 months out of the year.......works perfect at lower speeds ...no grabbing.........I think it boils down to a sawyer knowing his equipment and his/her work as to how to run the saw....some do....some only think they do...some don't even have a clue....
 
What I know about milling can be written on a postage stamp with a permanent marker - but I do know that letting up on the throttle at the end of a cut saves a massive over rev when the saw comes out of the wood. Makes sense to me to operate a saw with some sense of sympathy to the machine. Even a limited coil can only do so much, if the load drops suddenly the revs will spike much higher than in any other situation. Forces rise exponentially with revs, I forget the exact numbers, but 15000rpm is probably 4 times the force on all engine components of 14000rpm.

As to jetting - transfer circuits have to be MUCH richer than wfo or idle. That sudden burst of air when the throttle is cracked needs a big lump of fuel to compensate or an engine will stumble instead of spooling up. Doesn't matter carby, EFI, whatever - this is an important tuning point. On a programmable efi setup you can tune how long that "extra" fuel is in the program after a throttle blip. A chainsaw carb doesn't know the difference between constant 3/4 throttle and 3/4 throttle for an instant as you spool up the saw.
As this part of the throttle response on a saw is effected by both low and high speed needles I'm certain a safe fuel tune can be found for extended part throttle running. It wouldn't take a genius - but perhaps an extra hand - to tune a saw while milling at 3/4 throttle so as it four strokes when you lift pressure in the cut but cleans up under load.
What I'm not certain about is ignition timing tuning for extended running at less than full revs. The ignition timing has no input for throttle position (don't know about at/mtronic), so I can imagine a situation where it is possible that ignition timing is too advanced for safe long term running at part throttle/reduced revs in a situation where load is suddenly increased (hitting a knot, etc), or decreased (reducing pressure in the cut). Best guess is it should be fine as ignition timing usually needs to be lower in a transition stage than constant revs, and a saw transfers through those rev points a gazillion times a day limbing and bucking.
 
What I know about milling can be written on a postage stamp with a permanent marker - but I do know that letting up on the throttle at the end of a cut saves a massive over rev when the saw comes out of the wood. Makes sense to me to operate a saw with some sense of sympathy to the machine. Even a limited coil can only do so much, if the load drops suddenly the revs will spike much higher than in any other situation. Forces rise exponentially with revs, I forget the exact numbers, but 15000rpm is probably 4 times the force on all engine components of 14000rpm.

As to jetting - transfer circuits have to be MUCH richer than wfo or idle. That sudden burst of air when the throttle is cracked needs a big lump of fuel to compensate or an engine will stumble instead of spooling up. Doesn't matter carby, EFI, whatever - this is an important tuning point. On a programmable efi setup you can tune how long that "extra" fuel is in the program after a throttle blip. A chainsaw carb doesn't know the difference between constant 3/4 throttle and 3/4 throttle for an instant as you spool up the saw.
As this part of the throttle response on a saw is effected by both low and high speed needles I'm certain a safe fuel tune can be found for extended part throttle running. It wouldn't take a genius - but perhaps an extra hand - to tune a saw while milling at 3/4 throttle so as it four strokes when you lift pressure in the cut but cleans up under load.
What I'm not certain about is ignition timing tuning for extended running at less than full revs. The ignition timing has no input for throttle position (don't know about at/mtronic), so I can imagine a situation where it is possible that ignition timing is too advanced for safe long term running at part throttle/reduced revs in a situation where load is suddenly increased (hitting a knot, etc), or decreased (reducing pressure in the cut). Best guess is it should be fine as ignition timing usually needs to be lower in a transition stage than constant revs, and a saw transfers through those rev points a gazillion times a day limbing and bucking.

Couple things:

The forces resulting from momentary accelerataions of engine bits are proportional to the square (second power) of engine speed. Not at all exponential. For small increments, that's twice.

(X + a)^2 + X^2 + 2*X*a + a^2 If a << X, that can be simplified by dropping the a^2.
(IOW, for a 2% engine speed increase, peak forces would go up 4%. For your example, of 14K to 15K, a 7% increase of speed, you see approx 14% peak force increment.

The metering circuits of diaphragm carbs are extremely basic, nothing like Weber or SU carbs. Only the idle circuit involves air/fuel emulsions for idle and off-idle. That certainly helps to vaporize fuel and help it burn, moderating the need for extreme richness here. The main mixture just keeps going richer as speed and throttle opening increases until 4-stroking identifies excessive richness.

Reducing throttle when an engine is tending to over-rev may well have the effect of leaning the mixture toward optimum, while lowering combustion temps, not to mention reducing multiple (inertial and power transmission) mechanical stresses. Some experts explain another mechanical threat of extended extreme engine speed, like holding throttle WO for extended limbing, increasing likelihood of detonation unless octane is increased. This seems to go in the face of the 4-stroking, excessive richness, we'd expect to kick in there. Besides, running an engine that way, beyond the power peak, is simply abusive.

Lots of variables to deal with here, making for no single simple solution. Helps to have a range of saw sizes for the job, to simplify some.
 
I hate to be negative but I do not understand the whole milling with a chainsaw thing at all. It just does not seem like the right tool for the job. I get my lumber milled for 14 cents a foot, seems like a bargain to me.
 
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