Saw Kickback Direction

[Woodie]

What would you guys say about the following passage I just read in an instructional manual:

"If the end or nose of the bar is stubbed, the immediate response is a kickback. If the top end of the bar is touched, the saw will respond by kicking back and down. The saw will kick back and up if the if the bottom tip is touched. To eliminate these two directional kickbacks while limbing, be careful not to stub the bar and be certain that the bar is committed to the desired cutting area."

It also shows an illustration of the above situation, with arrows showing the bar tip being thrust toward the sawyer's feet if contact is made on the upper quadrant of the bar tip, and toward his head if contact is made in the lower quadrant.

Thoughts, comments?

 

[minkota1]

Sounds backwards from reality doesn't it?

 

[clearance]

Who ever wrote that has never run a saw much. Tell us the name of this manual.

 

[Woodie]

Who ever wrote that has never run a saw much. Tell us the name of this manual.

I will be happy to, but I'd like to get a couple more weigh-ins, first.

 

[clearance]

http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/12342.html Here is what the author of this manual gets from me.

 

[Woodie]

http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/12342.html Here is what the author of this manual gets from me.

I'm gonna count that as a 1 for the "disagree" colomn...

 

[John Ellison]

I agree with clearance and minkota, they might as well say that any part of the saw will kick back as soon as it touches wood.

The saws that I run have only kicked back on me from the top half of the tip. Bottom half of tip is safe to work with (as in starting a bore cut) but not the top half. It could kick in about any direction depending on what position it is in.

 

[dtnodya]

On a (sort of) side note, have any of you ever had a saw kickback the way that kickback seems to be described most often? Meaning, the saw kicks right at your face or feet? Or have you seen the kickback test videos, anybody ever had that type of stuff happen? I haven't. Then again, I pay attention to where the tip of the bar is ...

 

[Sprig]

On a (sort of) side note, have any of you ever had a saw kickback the way that kickback seems to be described most often? Meaning, the saw kicks right at your face or feet? Or have you seen the kickback test videos, anybody ever had that type of stuff happen? I haven't. Then again, I pay attention to where the tip of the bar is ...

Yup, right in the face type hitting stuff with the tip in a log pile and catching vine maples while clearing, both times safely but rather un-nerving, the one in the logpile sprained my wrist (Husky 2100 with a long bar). Have never had a 'kickdown' to the foot, still trying to figure that one out and how it'd work (not that I want to try finding out mind ya), just doesn't make sense to me maybe I'm missing something there? duno. Only time I got cut was a sideways kick-back doing a plungecut and not being behind the saw but standing parallel to it, really stupid (and a long time ago but I have the reminder on my thigh). Ever since I always keep a vision of where the bar would end up when/if it should happen, and stay to the side out of the 'zone' and keep control at all times. Had little kicks from the bottom of the tip too when not enough control and pressure was applied btw (to one of above posts). As many will attest it is often at the end of a long day when complacency over-rides sense that this stuff happens. Only takes 1/10th of a sec to ruin a good day. My opinions and experiences.



Serge

 

[SawTroll]

http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/12342.html Here is what the author of this manual gets from me.

+1.....

I'm gonna count that as a 1 for the "disagree" colomn...

Try to explain that "kick-down" mechanically - not possible, right?


...unless the saw is running backwards, of course.....:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[mktest]

Considering the obvious expertise of this skilled writer, we must also assume that the chain is perhaps backwards, and/or the engine rotates in the wrong direction. Not totally impossible on electrical chainsaws (which this might be?) given (very VERY) bad service :monkey:

 

[joesawer]

To my way of thinking kickback happens when the cutter tooth suddenly catches traction and the saw starts moving. The saw then has to move in the opposite direction that the chain is moving.
So in order for it to kickBACK toward your feet the saw would have to be upside down or the saw chain be spinning backwards.
In my experience the most common kickback by far is from the upper halve of the bar nose. This rotates the saw up usually towards the head. I have cut a kerf in the brim of my hard hat from this. A real wakeup call.
There is also a chance of the saw being pushed straight back out of a cut when backchaining (cutting with the top of the bar). It seems to be caused by a slight pinch suddenly stopping the chain. This usually shoves the pistol grip towards your body. I have heard of saw operators getting a tremendous punch in the torso or thighs from this.
Extremely rare is if the chain is suddenly stopped on the bottom of the bar with out the dogs or the case being against the wood it can snatch the saw away from you. (Away from you wouldn't be kickback would it?) One of the strangest injuries that I have ever heard of was caused by this.
A logger with considerable experience was bucking a log,when for some reason the chain stopped and the saw violently pulled him over the log and into the ground head first, breaking his neck.

 

[Woodie]

There seems to be unanimous agreement that the author in question is wrong, but before I name him, I'd like to see if anyone else can actually defend this guy's words.

(This is a long way of saying "bump.")

 

[PES+]

Of course it's backwards

Now spill who it is

 

[Woodie]

Of course it's backwards

Now spill who it is

Okay...now that I've been threatened by a sponsor... :hmm3grin2orange:

None other than... (where's the dizamm drumroll smiley...don't we gots one of those??) ...

D. Douglas Dent
Professional Timber Falling
1974

Pg 160

 

[2000ssm6]

Has he wrote any comments about nappy headed hoes? I'm talking about a garden tool with a bunch of grass clogged in the head.

 

[dustytools]

http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/12342.html Here is what the author of this manual gets from me.

I liked that Clearance. But I especially liked the blonde in the white panties.LOL.

 

[joesawer]

I read his book several years ago and remember having some small disagreements with some things he wrote. Strangely enough I can't remember exactly what they were, But the one thing I remember best is the part early in the book where he says (very rough paraphrase) that safety is not just procedure or equipment but the proper application of both. With that I totally agree and think it is one if the most important points he makes in the whole book.

 

[dtnodya]

Yup, right in the face type hitting stuff with the tip in a log pile and catching vine maples while clearing, both times safely but rather un-nerving, the one in the logpile sprained my wrist (Husky 2100 with a long bar). Have never had a 'kickdown' to the foot, still trying to figure that one out and how it'd work (not that I want to try finding out mind ya), just doesn't make sense to me maybe I'm missing something there? duno. Only time I got cut was a sideways kick-back doing a plungecut and not being behind the saw but standing parallel to it, really stupid (and a long time ago but I have the reminder on my thigh). Ever since I always keep a vision of where the bar would end up when/if it should happen, and stay to the side out of the 'zone' and keep control at all times. Had little kicks from the bottom of the tip too when not enough control and pressure was applied btw (to one of above posts). As many will attest it is often at the end of a long day when complacency over-rides sense that this stuff happens. Only takes 1/10th of a sec to ruin a good day. My opinions and experiences.



Serge

Good post, that's what I was wondering. So did your hand hit the chain brake either of the times you didn't get hurt (except wrist)? The worst kickback I've had is more like a straight back kick when bucking. I had a tree that was off the ground a little and I didn't notice at first ... so I was just cutting like straight through and then the bar started to pinch then WHAM! Saw kicked me in the gut. It wasn't fun.

Has he wrote any comments about nappy headed hoes? I'm talking about a garden tool with a bunch of grass clogged in the head.

 

[Sprig]

Good post, that's what I was wondering. So did your hand hit the chain brake either of the times you didn't get hurt (except wrist)? The worst kickback I've had is more like a straight back kick when bucking. I had a tree that was off the ground a little and I didn't notice at first ... so I was just cutting like straight through and then the bar started to pinch then WHAM! Saw kicked me in the gut. It wasn't fun.

First time the brake worked (the Husky) but it shocked my wrist (ended the day for me), on the brush I was using the 08s, no brake but out of the kb zone, both times a harsh lesson learned, pay attention to what is behind your cut before you start. In production cutting like tree spacing/thinning its really easy to overlook things and become complacent imo, and of the people I know who've been injured I think the most common cause was slashing at underbrush while standing in the bite, often near the end of the day when tired. Quite frankly I'm actually a little nervous using tiny high reving saws and use extra caution. Also, as has been oft stated on this site, use the brake when moving from spot to spot. As far as I am concerned it is next to impossible to be 'too safe' (a suit of full armor would right up there though lol), and regardless of saw size they all have the potential to maim or kill. Lot of safety talk on site here, a very good thing.
Work aware and safely!



Serge