For those using this method of cylinder clean up:
Please show us what tools you use. I use my drill and two home-made arbors,
Please show us what tools you use. I use my drill and two home-made arbors,
Show us your cylinder cleaning tools
- Thread starter irhunter
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Video is how Wiggs told folks how to do it many years ago.
I do all my rebuilds the easy as 1 2 3 for many years.
1 removal and 2 by hand to feel and make sure fine removal. 1 and 2 for sure.
3 is just my liking ever since I did a race saw 166 with the ball hone after a rebuild for fresh rings. Put a quick fresh crosshatching.
I do all my rebuilds the easy as 1 2 3 for many years.
1 removal and 2 by hand to feel and make sure fine removal. 1 and 2 for sure.
3 is just my liking ever since I did a race saw 166 with the ball hone after a rebuild for fresh rings. Put a quick fresh crosshatching.
Back when I rode and raced sleds (snowmobiles), I stuck many a piston because we ran them as lean as possible for the most power. To remove aluminum from the Nickasil cylinders before we honed them, we used Easy Off oven cleaner applied carefully where the aluminum had deposited itself on the bore. The oven cleaner softened the aluminum and made removal easy.
Pretty common for people to use muriatic acid, on saws, for the same purpose. I used to do that, too.
But, I find the sand-away-the-aluminum method to be easy and foolproof.
Emery cloth and soapy water to remove transfer then a light ball hone in the solvent tank. Final step is a ten minute bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. I also use a little soda blaster to clean exhaust ports and combustion chambers.
Biggest issue is identifying any left over aluminum transfer. Once polished it blends in even if there’s still a high spot. Acid foams up and tells you there’s still aluminum there
Straightedge and backround lighting usually finds the high spots for me that I can't feel.
Don't believe in using ball hones either. They tear up the plating bore and do nothing to straighten it out. Everyone has their own way. 400 or used 320 grit wet by hand is how they get finished here just like the bevel gets done. Switched to straight stone hones for cylinder finishing in the future. Bought several types and grits early this spring. Tested them and found out breaking them in first needs to happen on steel cylinders. Limiting the arm travel made a huge difference in the overall finish.
I’ve never seen a ball hone “tear up the plating” not saying it’s never happened but I’ve personally never gone through the plating with a ball hone. They’re not very aggressive to begin with and are meant to deglaze rather than actually hone. They leave a very fine surface finish. If a cylinder has any kind of taper or is out of round it needs to be replaced. A three stone hone isn’t going to fix that. Of course this is just a discussion and we all do what we think is best so no harm no foul.
I find the ball leaves deep marks in the plating that don't go away for hundreds of tanks. Do you take your saws apart and check them periodically?
Ball hones as well as others are made in many grit types and material makeups.
That said it also beats in the plating as it passes the port edge surely causing some deformation of plating at the edge of a stock port area not ported or reworked. Most ports have sharp edges there in the bevels. I think many have plating peeling issues around the exhaust ports from using ball hones.
A common theme is the plating let go on one side of the exhaust port or both after a rebuild. Makes me wonder did one person turn the hone in one direction and the other turned it in both directions. Did they even bother to sand the rough edges left behind. You can clearly see when no bevel was used or no attention to the port edges in a pic. Just a thought but the balls do leave marks in that area everytime even when turned slowly.
The whole point in using a flat stone is to know if the bore is infact warped or has sunk in spots from heat or mechanical failures without getting out a bore gauge to acually check it. You still need to check the piston fit. Most don't check bore sizes or piston sizes let along fit the pair as set with a tolerance in mind beforehand.
Moving forward doesn't require going back to old methods thought to be "Ok"
Nikasil does not require a rough finish to hold oil like most cylinder surfaces do. The peeks and correct valleys are not needed like steel, cast iron or titanium plated cylinder walls require. Today a few short runs is all that is needed to seat up a new ring and cylinder package done correctly with hard plating inside like Stihl, Husky or Echo. The oil is captured in the porosity of the material. A lot more going in there than meets the eye. Magnified 100x is a learning experience. Knowing how to get a finished cylinder wall close to what a profile meter can measure is not an easy task to be on point with. It requires a meter or quite some time to learn and even then most times we leave the peaks too rough and the valleys too deep on plated cylinders. The plating hone game is based in wall hardness. Plenty of power to be had there early on in the fresh engines new life verse waiting for twenty tanks or more. New saws cylinders are finished as best they can are still too rough and they all take some time to run in for a better seal. It matters in racing but most never realize the gain with hurt parts and failed rings from excessive heat cycles in any engine. Go lean once and rings radial tension is now gone so the cylinders wall finish isn't too important anymore. Cheap rings might be the single biggest issue in the sealing package most times. No face coats that stay on and the radial tension leaves cast iron rings quickly compared to steel wire made rings, fact.
Ball hones are ancient technology. I'm done with those because they are just not the right tool for this job and a rough finish imparts metal particles into the engine during breaking periods, no thanks. Too many reason not to use one imho.
I have pulled cylinders off various saws after being ball honed. Some had many gallons of fuel ran through, others several tanks. Some were customer saws some were personal saws. Never seen any evidence of damaged or worn through plating on edges of ports or otherwise. I’m about to pull the cylinder on one of my saws for inspection after having run 5-6 tanks of fuel. I’ll take some pictures, not expecting to see anything too exciting. I will say one thing about ball hones, you have to use the correct size for the application. I can see using one that’s too big causing some damage to port edges. Like any tool it must be used correctly, and it’s gotta be the right one for the job.
You might be onto something about people running oversized hones. That makes good sense they would be pounding in the port edges at high turning speeds. I try not to work on others fixes these days. I like things to be as the factory left them when doing rebuilds and beat bearing cranks do not get used over here.
Thinking more like 50 and 150 tanks down the road. A ball hone with silicate stones in 250 grit was still showing hone marks on the cylinder walls in my oldest as it came to me smoked by straight gas. Basic ms362 early model carb saw. @250 tanks it still had hone marks but not too deep. The rings were fine and the piston. Since then I went to hand finishing but it takes too long so three stones will now be used in 400 grit. No need to run a cross hatch in two stroke tools imho. Oil doesn't need to migrate up the walls like a four stroke does with oil control rings. Key point there. I can't control the pressure on these stones like a CNC machine will. We do the best we can with what we have most times.
A ball hone is used to deglaze and smooth port chamfers after porting it, after ball honing the rings seat in minutes using oem rings so there is no need to use aftermarket bevel edged rings . Nikacil is crosshatched to retain oil for the rings and piston skirt. It also works on chrome, and cast iron bores for the same purpose .Oem cylinders come with a sprayed on coating over the nik bore and rings but under it there is cross hatching that is exposed after a short run time. Used cylinders with mirror poilshed bores generate lower compression and wear out piston skirts and rings. Remember the rings, piston skirts and bearings ride on the oil film...
I use the ball hones maybe three seconds one direction and three seconds the other. Spray with WD40 or whatever suits you prior. Wipe it out and you can see what you have. You CAN'T use a ball hone to get all the transfer out or it will take the plating off the the down wind sides of the ports and transfers.
I'm sure an idiot can mess up a cylinder with a ball hone.
I use a Dremel with a sand paper attachment and Muratic acid, sometimes just my finger and some 400 grit or thereabouts.
Finish it off with some Scotch Brite.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Just cause yours works doesn't mean that somebody else can't get there a different way.
I'm sure an idiot can mess up a cylinder with a ball hone.
I use a Dremel with a sand paper attachment and Muratic acid, sometimes just my finger and some 400 grit or thereabouts.
Finish it off with some Scotch Brite.
There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. Just cause yours works doesn't mean that somebody else can't get there a different way.
Aluminum oxide 300-350 grit is whats used to deglaze bores, silicon carbide is too hard and aggressive removing too much material while too coarse of grit creates scratches too wide and deep. I have a old school oil squirt can that I use to apply oil to the hone, before its first use I soaked it in oil for a few minutes. The proper size of ball hone is also very important because it effects the pressure of the balls on the cylinder wall and their extension into the ports.
It’s not so much that ball hones can’t work, it’s when they get in the wrong hands and get used improperly. I have seen cylinders with no plating left for 1/8” around every port because someone told him to use a ball hone to remove the transfer. So that’s what he did. By the time the transfer was gone, so was the plating at the port edges
Yep. That’s a bad situation right there. I should also point out when running a hone of any kind, I follow the “minimal effective dose” protocol. Just enough to freshen up the surface and no more. As little honing as possible to achieve the desired finish.
Problem is no one really agrees on “proper” or “desired” finish. New Husky cylinders have a tiny crosshatch, where most new (last 20 years) Stihl cylinders are chrome plated and nearly like a mirror inside.
IDK what’s right or better. Or necessary
I think if you want to reuse a cylinder the goal is to get the transfer out . If you leave any it will likely seize a ring again. Once that is done you can slick it up any way that blows your dress up.
If you think your method has some magic then maybe you can sell the service to some suckers that will pay you for it.
If you think your method has some magic then maybe you can sell the service to some suckers that will pay you for it.
I’m sure there’s a method to quantify what’s “proper” I just go with what looks good to me. At the end of the day I suppose that’s all that really matters. We all have a different way of accomplishing the same end result. As long as it works and holds up long term I don’t think one could ask for more.
