Some Advice Please

[AJG]

Hello,

I wonder if someone could help me with this question I have. I am sure it will be quite easy for you but as you can probably tell I'm not a pro.

Picture for a moment that you have a tree to cut down (big or small). You have already cut all the side branches off so all you have left is the trunk and you want to cut that into bits rather than cut it in one big bit. Here is my question, if your chainsaw has a bar long enough to cut the trunk in one pass how do you cut it so when you get through to nearly the end of the cut the chunk of wood doesn't just fall and trap your saw?

I had thought of going through half way then cutting the other half from the other side but of course that would bring about the same result. I know I have probably not worded this question as well as I could have but I hope I can get some advice anyway. Thanks.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

In cutting a log on the ground you need to determin where the forces are. You will have compression on one side and tension on the other.

If these forcese are minimal then cutting partway on the compression side then finishing on the tension so that the peice will fall off eaisly is one way.

If the log can be rolled then cutting on the top of the log, irregardless of the froces, half way through, then rolling it over to finnish the job is a regualr practice, brcause it is quick and reduces the chance of grounding the bar and dulling the chain.

 

[AJG]

Thank you for reply but....

Hello Mr. Sanborn,

Thank you for your quick reply and helpful info. Please forgive me for not making this clear but my idea was that the tree trunk was still standing.

AJG

 

[Bob Wulkowicz]

Re: Thank you for reply but....

Originally posted by AJG
Hello Mr. Sanborn,

Thank you for your quick reply and helpful info. Please forgive me for not making this clear but my idea was that the tree trunk was still standing.

AJG

AJG,

You are asking a hypothetical question (big or small?) about a situation where ultimately there will not be any abstractions or thinking games--just a stark physical reality. There will just be you and this remainder tree--oh yes, and a chainsaw.

You say you are not a pro, and then ask our advice about hopefully acting as if you had suddenly become one. We can't do that; we can't make you a pro. You won't get any good answers here. No one knows the size of the tree; the size of you, whether or not you know about saws and sawing; if you're going to work from a ladder; and a hundred other conditions.

I assume you've cut off all the side branches already and your next circumstance will be up somewhere near the top of this tree with a chainsaw, gas or electric, which will not lose any rpm at all when it cuts into you rather than into the tree. You have shown us already by your questions that you don't belong doing this. It was smart of you to write in and ask, but your instincts are correct; you should worry a great deal about the next steps.

I will definitely not give any advice about what to do, not because I'm worried about liability, but because there aren't any words or pictures I can provide that would make me comfortable about safely helping you through your planned tasks.

Cutting off side branches give you a little bit of experience; having a chainsaw jam or kickback on you when you're up in the air is not a learning experience. It is a stupidity you or any reasonable inexperienced person shouldn't voluntarily get into.

There is no personal criticism here--no more than if I grabbed you just before you were going to step into traffic.

The likelyhood of your surviving is very high; you are obviously very concerned about doing it properly. A sensible alternative is to have someone else do it and watch. That's a learning curve you can live with. Better a chunk out of your wallet than out of your body.

Use that new understanding to see if you want to do it again yourself. That's even smarter than writing here.


Good luck, my advice again is watch someone else do it this time. I'd feel my involvement was useful if that's what you did.


Bob Wulkowicz

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Bob,
Amerika wasn't built on some a bunch of ****** that couldn't even fell a tree!
AJG,
Sharpen your saw, peg the throttle and cut like mad. When you get about halfway through the log, poke a stick in the kerf that is about the same width as the kerf. This will hold the kerf open until you finish the cut.
At this point one of two things will happen, the log will fall on your head, or the saw will kick back across your throat. Either way, the tree is no longer a problem to you.
Have a nice day,
Mike

 

[M.D. Vaden]

The only explanation I've seen in writing or diagram in an informal situation was the operator's manual that came with a Husqvarna chainsaw.

It had pictures, diagrams and showed various techniques.

Similar to how a table saw comes with an instruction manual.

I don't recall if the Husqvarna manual taught about the lean of a tree and things like that.

This really is one of the unique tasks in life that seems 10 times better when explained on a site in-person with initial coaching.

But it can't be ignored that some people by adult age are very adept at understanding direction, energy, motion and the action and reaction of physical forces.


Someone like that, with a chainsaw and a chainsaw manual, probably would do fine dropping a smaller tree, especially with the safety gear and even better if it was in the open.

Sometimes that's what directs man's fate - his level of self confidence, and whether or not his self-accessment was acurate.

 

[Bob Wulkowicz]

Maas,

Do we have two different ways of saying the same thing? Or did you catch yourself tn your zipper again?

I thought I was in charge of sarcasm this week. You were supposed to take care of gentle thoughtful insights. Didn't you get the envelope from Darin?


bobthe w

 

[geofore]

big/small

Big or small, picture this, you are smart enough to ask tihs question before you get in trouble and injure yourself, stop here and hire someone who does this for a living to come out and show you. Let them do the work and you live to tell about it. Do it yourself without the proper equipment and end up like the countless number of guys who I have gone out to clean up after while they went to the hospital to have broken bones fixxed and months of physical thearapy to put them back in shape.
A chainsaw is not enough equipment, you need to have safety equipment and someone on the ground to help. Who is going to call the paramedics when you get hurt or knocked out of the tree when the piece you just cut swings around and knocks you out of thr tree? Ignore what Maas said and call someone who knows how to come out and do it for you.

 

[Bob Wulkowicz]

Maas was using irony and sarcasm to say the same thing. He had me fooled for a while too.

Everyone seems to agree, AJG; don't attempt this yourself. The consequences you can't foresee or control, are too broad and tall.

Getting hurt by a tree or a chainsaw has no teaching value. Your istincts knew it was problem enough when you first wrote in.


bob wulkowicz

 

[geofore]

advice

Mike does have a different way of saying the same thing with emphasis on the Dangerous part that can hurt you. Length of bar is not the primary consideration, safety is and Mike points out it is ever so easy to get hurt. Big or small trees can injure you and you should have someone there just in case things go wrong if you do this yourself after the warnings. Just knowing how to make the cut is not enough. Having someone there to show you how to do it, the proper safety equipment to use and how to use it will cost less than a trip to the emergency room. It's not just about a chainsaw, it's about how long you want to live and the price you are willing to pay to for a long life without injury.

 

[Bob Wulkowicz]

What you just said is what's in the book, <i>The Sand Pebbles.</i>

If you don't have an understanding about machines--and their context--injury simply lies in wait. Or more horribly, lies in wait for someone after you.

This is one of my complaints where we traditionally cut away at trees and don't recognize that the woundings give rise to circumstances that make the tree an actual hazard tree, rather than the "possible" hazard we previously claimed to fix.

In <i>The Sand Pebbles</i>, there are a number of pages where the Chinese replacement labor has the perception that the steam engines that power the ship have dragons living in them. That worked fine in the imaginary world that explained how the dragons moved the vessel. The Chinese chief of the engine room, a sincere and proud man, died as a result of that magic, died because his crew went through the routines they had watched, but had never understood the principles, never learned the whys.

My motivations as a young father included still being around for my wife and kids and still earning what was needed for us as a family. I paid particular attention to learning about safety--mostly for myself in the beginning, but later using those same lessons when I ran crews.

You're right. "It's not just about a chainsaw, it's about how long you want to live and the price you are willing to pay to for a long life without injury." It's about everything around you when you use a saw; knowing where the people below have wandered to; having a good idea of what dynamics you're about to start in motion when you begin a cut; knowing what will have happened when you finish.

AJG was correct to ask. He now can make decisions with us have been very clear. A second-hand lesson is sometimes much better than doing it yourself, especially if the personal encounter includes a lot of yelling and pointing to the part in pain.


Bob Wulkowicz



PS: In talking of machines, don't kill yourself getting to see Terminator 3.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

You all can correct me if I'm wrong, but what we are concerned about is the cut he describes is high in the air, which means he's working from a ladder. If he was a pro with proper climbing gear, he wouldn't need to ask. If he was on the ground, this would be a simple problem to solve on his own.
So now we have a homeowner, on a ladder, working with a saw at neck level. A pro would never work off a ladder unless he was tied in and it was an extraordinary situation.
It's all bad.

 

[geofore]

cuts

Mike, I could not agree with you more. My take on it was he has already tried a few cuts (from a ladder or he is standing on some stubs he left) that as he said pinched the saw and now he wants advice on how to really get injured. I think he has already made an attempt and run into the problems he discribed. His discription of the cut he made indicates he is attempting to make one horizontal cut on the same plane, his bar is long enough to go clear through (half from the left then half from the right) and the weight sits on the blade. You point out the saw is apt to come back in his face and his worry is now the stiches it will take to sew him back up and not the tree. If he does cut clear through with your stick a twig in it and cut away the next thing that happens is as the weight of the piece leaves the tree, the tree springs back and throws him and the ladder, he has not tied in or that last little bit of bark held on and the piece comes around and knocks him out of the tree, he is on his way to the hospital and the tree is not important. He is still not tied in and if he finds a cut that works he gets bumptious and trys again only a bigger piece because he won this round. Still not tied in and cocky,extremely dangerous, he goes for it and the piece does not fall off. He reaches up to push it off and he and the piece leave the tree in a flash. The trip to the hospital is his concern not the tree. Not tied in, no safety equipment, and no one there to call for help. Should have called for someone to show him how it is done properly, would have been cheaper and he would have lived longer.

 

[Bob Wulkowicz]

Jeez,

Next you guys will be stalking him like paparazzi hoping to get some footage for America's Dumbest Videos.

I think he was only asking questions.

This way to the egress...


Wulkowicz

 

[AJG]

Clearing Up My Opening Post

Thank you to all who responded to my opening post.

I would just like to clear up what seems to be a misunderstanding due to the fact my OP was not very clear. As I said in my OP I am not a pro, what I failed to say is that I was not trying to become a pro overnight nor was I expecting any of you to make me a pro. I had/have no intention of trying the procedure I spoke of in my OP as I had the three big trees in my yard cut down by pro's quite a few years ago (too young to ask at the time) so I have no trees to cut and even if I did I wouldn't try. Just looking at some of the things you described in your responses (e.g. working from a ladder, being up in a tree) I would like to say that there is no way I would attempt any of them infact considering my current level of experience (almost none at all) I would even be a bit dubious about using a saw at chest height on the ground!!! Anyway getting back to the cutting technique I spoke of in my OP, the only reason I asked was/is because I am really interested in knowing how it is done as I saw it done a couple of years back from a distance, wondered how the heck it worked and couldn't get close enough to ask the guys doing it and I have not been near any tree pro's since. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyway I hope that this has cleared up the situation and I am sorry for any misunderstanding due to my OP not being written as good as it could have/should have been. Once again thank you to all of you for taking the time to respond.
AJG

 

[Stumper]

AJG, There are many different techniques. We have our individual preferences for "normal" situations plus special techniques when things get complicated. The way that I usually handle the situation you describe in your opening post is: cut through the spar until the wood chunk does indeed drop down and pinch my saw. I then withdraw the chainsaw, sever the remaining fiber with my hand saw and push the piece off. I work this way on stuff up to about 16" in diameter. Depending on the tree species I may not sever the remaining wood fiber with the hand saw but instead, tip, break, and toss the piece. Other techniques include placing a wedge in the saw kerf to prevent saw pinch, sloping cuts to encourage the piece to slide off in a specific direction, cutting most of the way level leaving the holding wood on the side opposite of the desired fall then making a second sloping cut down to meet the first kerf ( this insures that the chunk does'nt slide offf the wrong side) notching (face cutting) and felling the chunk.
As you may have gathered we do these things secured to the tree or (some of us in some situations) from an aerial lift. We may use a ladder occassionally for positioning/standing but we don't depend on the ladder to keep us from falling.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

So it sounds like your wondering how to "chunk" down a spar.

The most common is to do a "bypass" or "snap" cut. This s where we make one cut with the saw in shallow, say 1/4 of the way in, then another cut above that that will bypass the first. Then letting the saw dangle on the lanyard, whe wiggle the chunk of wood untill the holding wood shears along the grain from one curf to the other. Some witll call this "Cut and Chuck".

If we are in a small area where there is potential damamge we may do the same thing with a rope through a bclock, hence the trem, "Blocking " down the spar. Some will use a pull rope tied high to pull larger chunks of wood off with a groundman on the rope.

Go to our sponsor, Sherrill, and buy a copy of "the Tree Climbers Companion" for more info. It's like $15. It is item #: 16217 in their inventory.