Split-Tail Termination Knots

[Heath]

I am interested in dialogue concerning the appropriate termination knots in a split-tail system. I have learned from 'old-timers' that two half hitches are sufficient. Arbormaster and others teach the Anchor Bend and the Bunt-Line Hitch, which I agree are the best, based on the respect paid to Arbormaster, and my bosses opinion. However, I was originally taught to terminate with the Bowline. Certain people would argue that the Bowline significantly reduces line strength, and is not a safe knot with which to terminate. While others would contend that most employers will keep you on the ground if you tie anything but the Bowline. I was recently 'forced' to terminate with a Bowline in a Work Climb Competition by the sponsors. Can anyone discuss this? Why is something as important to climber safety as this such a controversy?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Who still climbs with a split tail? And if they did, wouldn't the end be spliced? And if the end wasn't spliced, would the end of the climbing line be spliced? And if it wasn't, would there be room for anything else on your saddle with all those big old knots up there?

Most guys I know use a double fisherman's knot, or a barrel hitch(?). It is secure and sinches up on the carabiner. A bowline reduces the strength of the rope, but the rope has a breaking strength of over 5000 lb.s and only hold half of the load, that puts the system at over 10,000 lb.s breaking strength.
The problem I have with a bowline is it might come untied if the tail is too short or it's allowed to flop around without pressure.

 

[treeclimber165]

When I first read this post I had no idea how to respond. Mike hit the nail on the head, I went from using a long tail on my lifeline to a split tail and continued on to advanced hitches within 48 hours. There really isn't any benefit to using split tails unless you are using advanced hitches.
Here is a picture I found which is practically identical to my setup, except I use different brands of ropes. I use the barrel knot, or double fisherman's knot to secure my tres cord to the biner.

 

[dbeck]

I agree with the double fishermans knot on my splitail...to me is more secure than buntline or anchor. Also, it can save you splicing charges depending on what you are using. I use ultra tech for a vt. Dpending on how much you are on the cord during your climbs, the performance can dwindle quickly. If you are buying the spliced tail, you will be charged approx $20 more than if you just bought the length of cord and tied the knot.
fyi when exiting a tree after all the work is done, I will lanyard in and add a carabiner in between my saddle and splittail carab(make sense?) to make the connection longer. below that, I put in a cardiac arrest to take the friction so the ultra tech does not get worn as fast.

 

[ramanujan]

i think that more than just deciding on one knot, climbers should learn what knots are secure and strong in different material.

i terminate my climbing line to a biner on my saddle with a bowline with a yosemite finish. i use a bowline because of my style of saddle and the biners i use make it easier to unclip the rope from the biner than the biner from the saddle. so for a tree in which i must tie in several times it eliminates retying my termination knot.

regarding the strength of different knots, it seems that no two books or articles every fully agree on how much each knot weakens rope. in most situations where a rope breaks it breaks
at a nick or where it's sharply bent.


i think it's best to avoid situations that come anywhere near loading your rope to its limit

what knots have people seen fail or come undone?

i've seen a clove hitch with two half hitches unravel when a log rolled (obviously not the correct application). also my friends double fisherman in his tress cord (aracom-t) very nearly slipped through, weeks after the knot should have been very fully set.

 

[mikecross23]

Originally posted by ramanujan
also my friends double fisherman in his tress cord (aracom-t) very nearly slipped through, weeks after the knot should have been very fully set.

To avoid that happening to me I leave about a 1" tail, wrap it tight w/ electrical tape and melt the end over into a huge stopper glob. I haven't climbed on tres cords tied like this for more than 2 or 3 months, but so far I haven't noticed any slippage on any of the ones I've made.

-Mike-

 

[Stumper]

The slick and pretty solution is to whip/serve the tag sticking out of the Scaffold Knot (Aka 1/2 Dbl fishermans on a bight) onto the standing line. This makes a bombproof termination since a well formed whipping can make a 100% termination without a knot. It isn't necessary with most cords but it looks good, makes a smoother end-loop and is really easy to do.

 

[Ghivelder]

Originally posted by treeclimber165
Here is a picture I found which is practically identical to my setup...

I swear I've seen this setup somewhere before...

Sergio

P.S. If you need higher resolution pics, I can send them to you.

 

[treeclimber165]

Thank you, Sergio. Is that your picture I posted? I will have to give you credit in the future. I thought I had found it at an online arborist retailer's website like Fresco or Aerial Equipment or somewhere. I will change the name of the picture now so you get credit for future use. Thanks again.

Back to termination knots, I also use the scaffold knot to terminate my lifeline on my biner when I am not using a spliced rope. I'll leave an inch or more tail if I do not have a chance to set it with pliers, although I've never had the knot slip on me.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that a barrel/fisherman's is a trusty anchor splice made back to the host line itself w/ rings crossed over each other, leaving a shrinking loop to cradle device. i prefer to make a 3 ring anchor back to the line itself with no twists in rings, for cleaner taper. i think the strenght, simplicity and security of the anchor hitch is legendary, and is increased by the primary load going to device then hitch, to keep load off the hitch/joint as Sherril offers with longer splices, and as a half hitch w/ running bowline doess. i also run the tail across the bottom of the knot to the far side before it makes it's final journey up through the rings to lay agianst the load line. In this way i think that there is more direct, securing pressure on the tail for more security by the hitched device resting more squarely on the tail.

In hitches the primary curve into the lacing can be affected by the size of the hitched device; thereby affecting strength i think.

i use a double bowline with yosemite tieoff for strong, secure, symetrical wide open temporary eye. 3 ring aanchor to host line for tightly closed eye.

i think that split tails add much more flexability to maximize positioning. i drag my feet on the line on longer descents to take some of the friction load off the friction hitch, and feel/watch my line etc. i think that the amount of friction saved in a friction saver must go to hitch or other braking forces to equalize the loss of friction control over your motion at the top, thereby wearing out cords and tails faster. But probably not as fast as hotdogging!

Knut Friction hitch is very interesting.

 

[Heath]

Yo, Down to Earth,
I've been looking for the Freedom Prussik online....
Are you being clever and you actually mean the French Prussik?

Just curious, I thought we were talking knots, knot politics!?

One Love!
Heath

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I don't like the bowline to secure my freedom prussics, it's too loose, in fact it's as loose as a freedom whore, who I have to stay away from or my wife won't freedom kiss me anymore.

 

[TREETX]

A split tail is useful for redirects, leaps and bounds ahead of the snap system. Don't jump on this guy too hard.

Why should everything be spliced?? I have to admit I like splices, but it is not a big difference.

Been using the barrel myself for temination on my french prussik.

At the TxTCC, I have to keep from laughing at the people who were like "hey I burned through my tres cord, do you have an extra?" This happened twice. I handed them a little roll of T900 and StaSet. Got funny looks. They didn't know what to do w/out the store bought thing from sherrill.

I have seen a bowline come untied on stiff rope. I have also had a timber hitch unroll a few years back - I think it was due to user error

 

[BigJohn]

Here is a pic of my fritcion hitch biner setup with a double fishermans knot.

 

[Tim Gardner]

John, what is the advantage of doing the last two braids that way in your hitch. I have not seen that before.

 

[TREETX]

My understanding is that it makes the hitch self tending. My QUESTION is, if it is self tending, why the pulley??

 

[BigJohn]

The pulley is mainly there cause it has always been there. It looks cool. And its there if I choose later in the tree to change to something different. Maybe I want something looser or maybe tighter or I just need a change. I'm a quirky guy I get bored easily.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've had guys complain about the tenex spliced tress cords burning out so fast. I offer then $18 worth of stable braid.

There are some high heat cords comming out soon that actualy use the special fibers in the sheathe vs the core. I've often wondered what the use o 900* char test rope is when the sheath is a 400* polly yarn.

Have not heard of any MSRP on the vectran sheathed cordage yet, just a lot of jabber from the guys lucky enough to feild test it.

A good rule of thumb for TCC's is to being plenty of cordage so you have one for each decent.

 

[dbeck]

john sanborn
which cords are you speaking of that are coming out soon? Just got some of the new ultra tech and do not care for it very much...just curious! thanks.

 

[BigJohn]

There is actually some cord now available that has 932 degree scorch melting point. It has a technora/pollyester sheath with a nylon core. It has a strength of 6900#. I have some 200 feet on order now.