How much of that is taxes and how much is the underlying product?
Talked to Husqvarna factory service tech today
- Thread starter vapnut257
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How much of that is taxes and how much is the underlying product?
SawTroll
Information Collector
Here in Norway, most of the price of pump petrol is taxes - that is probably the reason why the premixed Alky fuel is somewhat price competitive here.
I believe that the situation isn't that far from the same, among our "nabors".
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romeo
Addicted to ArboristSite
Haahahahahaha.:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:
Why would we big BAAAAD Americans want to be oppressed and drive funny little clown cars like you guys.
I drive a truck that you guys in your socialist countries only dream of getting to own. But I need it to pull my V-8 jet boat to the lake with.
(thats 810 cubic inches and 90 gallons of gas between the both of them, don't know the metric conversion)
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BC_Logger
ArboristSite Guru
the biggest problem isn't with running ethanol fuel its when you let the as sit for a wile ,because there's ethanol in the fuel and it does not bond the oil so there for it separates, mix at the top and ethanol at the bottom of the can
also ethanol doesn't like aluminum
2 cycle engines and ethanol is like Donald trump and Rosie O'Donnell , they will work in the start but given time bad things happen
also ethanol doesn't like aluminum
2 cycle engines and ethanol is like Donald trump and Rosie O'Donnell , they will work in the start but given time bad things happen
stihl 440
Addicted to ArboristSite
turbo blue?
I've heard of guy's using turbo blue in their saws, would it hurt anything? I don't run it, but am curious. Would you have to mix it richer? I run 94 oct sunoco, with stihl mix.
:hmm3grin2orange: :biggrinbounce2: :greenchainsaw:
I've heard of guy's using turbo blue in their saws, would it hurt anything? I don't run it, but am curious. Would you have to mix it richer? I run 94 oct sunoco, with stihl mix.
:hmm3grin2orange: :biggrinbounce2: :greenchainsaw:
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
God, I hate to disagree with a Jonsered guy here, but you are spinning out of orbit with this reasoning.
The OEM's are struggling with, but cannot be held responsible for the changing irregularities in todays fuels. Why? Pretty simple. Fuel formulations are determined primarily for autos and their emmisions. And as we know, these fuel blends are changed in many areas for summer vs. winter. The automotive companies are lucky if they have an opportunity to provide input for these fuels. Recently, they have been pushing the oil companies on the low sulfer deisel fuels. There is an ongoing argument between the auto industry and "big oil" regarding who should shoulder the weight of reduced emissions. "Our cars and trucks could run cleaner if we had better fuels".
Chainsaws? Who are those guys? The 2 cycle OEM's have little if anything to say in this discussion. The amount of fuel used in chainsaws is just a few drops compared to the millions of gallons burned on the highways. They are left to try to best figure out, on their own, how to adapt to todays fuels.
Husky's new XP synthetic blend oil is somewhat more tolerant of ethanol, and there was quite a bit of legal hugging and kissing before Sweden would release this formula to be blended by Spectrum Lubricants, as they obviously didn't want to share this with Spectrums' other customers.
Should Vapnut be pissed? Certainly. It's not his fault; but it isn't necessarily Husky's either. He got the short end of the stick just the same as if the wind blew a tree over on his car. Sometimes there is someone else to blame, and sometimes you just have to pay the bill. It's life. Foot stomping and "class action suits" are becoming more and more fashionable today as everybody wants somebody else to pay. But sometimes you just have to suck it up and move on.
But.....could his dealer have done more for him? I think so. And a good relationship with the dealer carries a lot of weight, as does a dealers' relationship with factory guys. Saw pressure tests OK, limiter caps in place, mixed fuel (after shaking) in tank, no AS member mods (couldn't resist), clean air filter.
Your a good customer? Yeah, we can warranty that. Your a ball breaker? We're going by the book and your screwed.
I'm not throwing stones at either Vap or his dealer, but attitudes and relationships carry just as much weight as written policies.
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ignorant socialist reasoning pravalent here in this post. Artificially raising prices is simply another form of taxation disguised as "doing something good".
Most European countries are smaller than most of our states. Why some Europeans, and those Americans out on the delusional left, suggest that we emulate them is simply one of the worlds great mysteries.
Not wishing to offend my European friends here. Plus, I do prefer MONTREAL brand hockey sticks from Finland, which have kept my slapshot from deteriorating as much as my skating as I get older.
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Vibes
Addicted to ArboristSite
Spike, Nice guys finish last.
I'm glad I read this post, I was just about ready to dish out $675 0n a new 575 or 372. I'll think I'll pass now. Tell that to the Husky rep and to Baileys.
I'll rent when I need a big saw and just keep pushing my old ones and hopefully these manufacturers can figure something out.
I'm glad I read this post, I was just about ready to dish out $675 0n a new 575 or 372. I'll think I'll pass now. Tell that to the Husky rep and to Baileys.
I'll rent when I need a big saw and just keep pushing my old ones and hopefully these manufacturers can figure something out.
Woodie
"Cap'n Bullcrap'n"
Spike,
You raise good points, and I'm sure the OPE mfgrs are struggling with fuel issues. I feel sorry for them, to a certain degree.
But the bottom line is that, if the customer does everything by the book with his saw, and he used the saw for its intended purpose, then no, it absolutely is the manufacturers' burden to bear.
If their saw will not run on the fuel available in the state in which they sold the saw, then the mfgr has the responsibility to do two things: (1) Stop selling saws with known defects, and (2) make the current owners of their saws whole.
Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, I think the fuel issues in this country are badly out of hand. Too many blends of too much useless crap (oxygenates, etc.) cause price increases, legal issues, and the like.
But the mfgrs know the score on the fuels, and if their equipment will not handle the fuels which are available for sale, then they have the responsibility to quit selling until such time as they will handle them. That is simple, basic, tort law.
The fact that the primary "consumers" of gasoline are automobiles is immaterial here.
As an example, the primary consumers of gasoline also happen to be mom-and-pop passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks. But what if a boutique sports-car mfgr sold a vehicle that required 115 octane, and then failed to notify the consumer that it did? The consumer starts filling the tank with commercially available fuel, and his car won't run. Does he have a case in court? You bet he does. Unless notified otherwise, the customer has a right to expect the vehicle to run on commercially available gasoline, and if it will not, then it is unfit for the purpose for which it is sold.
10% ethanol is nothing new in this country...we've had it for twenty years, and some states have (silly) laws that require the sale of nothing but 10%.
According to Lake, Stihl is warning customers not to let ethanol sit in the tank more than 60 days. That shifts the burden back to the customer, because the saw will run on the available fuel, and the customer has been put on notice as to how to properly maintain the saw while using that fuel.
As a test, try to get Husky to put the reason they are denying the claim in writing. I bet the reason changes by the time it gets to paper.
And for the record, I don't like class-action suits either...they generally get used by blood-suckin' ambulance-chasing bashterds to extort money which they then pocket themselves...consumers get lots of "coupons." Whoopie. But they do have their place.
You raise good points, and I'm sure the OPE mfgrs are struggling with fuel issues. I feel sorry for them, to a certain degree.
But the bottom line is that, if the customer does everything by the book with his saw, and he used the saw for its intended purpose, then no, it absolutely is the manufacturers' burden to bear.
If their saw will not run on the fuel available in the state in which they sold the saw, then the mfgr has the responsibility to do two things: (1) Stop selling saws with known defects, and (2) make the current owners of their saws whole.
Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, I think the fuel issues in this country are badly out of hand. Too many blends of too much useless crap (oxygenates, etc.) cause price increases, legal issues, and the like.
But the mfgrs know the score on the fuels, and if their equipment will not handle the fuels which are available for sale, then they have the responsibility to quit selling until such time as they will handle them. That is simple, basic, tort law.
The fact that the primary "consumers" of gasoline are automobiles is immaterial here.
As an example, the primary consumers of gasoline also happen to be mom-and-pop passenger vehicles and light-duty trucks. But what if a boutique sports-car mfgr sold a vehicle that required 115 octane, and then failed to notify the consumer that it did? The consumer starts filling the tank with commercially available fuel, and his car won't run. Does he have a case in court? You bet he does. Unless notified otherwise, the customer has a right to expect the vehicle to run on commercially available gasoline, and if it will not, then it is unfit for the purpose for which it is sold.
10% ethanol is nothing new in this country...we've had it for twenty years, and some states have (silly) laws that require the sale of nothing but 10%.
According to Lake, Stihl is warning customers not to let ethanol sit in the tank more than 60 days. That shifts the burden back to the customer, because the saw will run on the available fuel, and the customer has been put on notice as to how to properly maintain the saw while using that fuel.
As a test, try to get Husky to put the reason they are denying the claim in writing. I bet the reason changes by the time it gets to paper.
And for the record, I don't like class-action suits either...they generally get used by blood-suckin' ambulance-chasing bashterds to extort money which they then pocket themselves...consumers get lots of "coupons." Whoopie. But they do have their place.
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SawTroll
Information Collector
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
Maybe in your world Vibes. In my world nice guys finish first. It's the schmucks who finish last.
Got some proof, and it just happened yesterday. Customer dropped off a saw that had developed an air leak. I started it up to see what was going on and locate the air leak. All of a sudden the revs went into the stratoshpere, and BANG! Locked right up. (I should do one of Lakesides' "guess what happened" threads, but I've got to finish the story)
Tore the saw down and discovered that the throttle plate and it's screw came off the carb and got ingested into the saw. Bottom of the piston missing a big chunk, big score in the cylinder, and the crank won't go full circle. Junk.
Called up the OEM, (which I won't name here), to discuss it. Should be a cut and dry warranty here right? Wrong, because the saw is 6 MONTHS out of warranty. Not a few weeks, 6 MONTHS. But it's worth a shot because the customer is a "nice guy" and so am I. Turns out that the tech guy I called is also a nice guy, because he says "Gee, I'd still like to do something for him". He asked me if the customer had much time on the saw. Telling the truth, I said that he's a pro and has put a lot of time on the saw. He answers that carbs aren't supposed to launch their parts into the saw, and goes for giving the customer a brand new saw. And it's not even their fault, it's freaking Zamas' fault.
Customers' a nice guy, I'm a nice guy. He gets a new saw, I'll probably get a six pack of Sam Adams.
Now, would I go to bat for an online or box store customer like this? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO way!!!!!
Answering from the wrong country now, but it should be about the same here in Sweden as in Finland: I pay about $6.15 per gallon, out of that about $2.40 is the price of the product, the rest is taxes, and upon that sales tax on both the product price, and on the taxes.
But for that price, at least I get pure gas. Or close to anyway, there's no ethanol in it. Works great in saws and doesn't seem to get old as fast as yours.
So, what's up, you guys over there can't afford to buy quality or what? :biggrinbounce2:
*runs for cover...*
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
ALL manufacturers have similar "burden shifting" policies to protect themselves. All two stroke oils are fine with fresh fuel. If the ethanol separates over time, then it's not much different than when fuel just "goes bad" as is often the case with 2 and 4 cycle equipment alike.
How does one determine whether the fuel in question is 60 days old? "It's only 56 days old; here's my receipt." How do we know the gas in the can is the gas on the receipt?
Is the presence of aluminum a "known defect", because it can be compromised by prolonged contact with ethanol? What is an acceptable definition of prolonged?
Your post also makes some interesting points, but do we need to hire lawyers to argue them, or should we just pay a little more attention to the fuel we are using?
SawTroll
Information Collector
Alkylate fuel is the true quality product, regardig 2-cycle fuel........:help:
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
Haahahahahaha.:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:
Why would we big BAAAAD Americans want to be oppressed and drive funny little clown cars like you guys.
I drive a truck that you guys in your socialist countries only dream of getting to own. But I need it to pull my V-8 jet boat to the lake with.
Too bad I can only hit the rep meter one time. I'd rep you 10 times if they would let me.
I feel like going out for an aimless 10 minute drive just to waste a gallon.
I'm with you on hydrogen except:
1. Most of it is created from oil (hydrocarbon).
2. Think it uses more energy to produce than it returns.
3. Imagine the weight of the chainsaw equipped with a tank to SAFELY contain it.
The fuel cells that convert oxy/hyd directly to electricity appear promising and can easily be sized to meet the need.
Oh oh gettin' nerdy again. :biggrinbounce2:
Sprig
Addicted to ArboristSite
Not nerdy enough Lou
Hydrogen is not produced from oil, its from breaking water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. That said, it takes an inordinate amount of electricity (so far) to do this, much of which is produced (US side) from fossil fuels I think, do stand ta be corrected on that tho. I think in the near future we'll see more solar/wind power doing this job and that will make fuel cells more practicle.
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Not nerdy enough Lou
I think if you research you'll find MOST hydrogen in the US today comes from oil. Cheaper and easier to produce than from water.
SawTroll
Information Collector
Was just surfin' natural gas is the primary source. It is in short supply also, and it takes twice as much energy to produce the hydrogen as is returned.
