The Chimney and the Beyond EPA Standards Stove

[slowp]

I can compare it to the stove I had when I lived here during the 1980s. Almost the same neighborhood, same type of wood, a Schrader stove almost the same size.
It too was double or triple wall chimney--straight up, just like this one. That stove was also vented through the floor, like this one. That one was also installed by a professional installer.

I ran it as much as I do this one. I'd tap on the stovepipe and I'd hear the tinkle of stuff coming off the pipe. I'd clean it. I've tapped this pipe many a time and never heard that sound.

Nope, I have no scientific studies. I'm just a forester, not a wood stove studier. Perhaps you can enlighten us? Until then, I've decided by my unscientific anecdotal evidence that the Warshington EPA stove burns cleaner than the old style. I'm glad I have it. I don't like climbing on roofs and I don't want to have it cleaned as frequently as I did the old one, which was a couple brushings a season.

You of course, will not agree. I can't say anything about an ordinary EPA certified stove because I have never had one of those.

My stove history? A useless Franklin in a rental house where we had a chimney fire. Next came the Earth Stove that really clogged up the pipe. Then the Schrader.
Then a pellet stove, another pellet stove, a propane stove which was my favorite, a Fischer stove, a fireplace insert and now my current set up. I've moved a lot.

 

[palmrose2]

I've run a United States Stove wood furnace for about 15 yrs. The common one you see every day. I burn hardwood almost exclusively. About ten cords a year. I have a 30'x7" flue. Cement block with double wall stainless. Insulated between the two stainless pipes. I empty the clean out twice a year. I have NEVER brushed it. Put a mirror on a long stick into the clean out, and see the sky plainly. Maybe there is soot on the walls. Who cares.

 

[Whitespider]

Put a mirror on a long stick into the clean out, and see the sky plainly. Maybe there is soot on the walls. Who cares.

Yep... same here... mirror in the clean-out from the bottom. Mine is just an old brick 'n' mortar chimney, so the clean-out is an 8"x8" door at basement floor level and I can also check it from the top with a strong flash light.

By today's thinking, my chimney should be closed-up with creosote... near everything about it is "wrong". It's several times larger than the flue pipe, has no liner of any sort, and is shared by three appliances... gas furnace, gas water heater, and a (so-called) smoke dragon wood furnace. Heck, even the 8" flue opening is shared by the 4" gas furnace and 6" wood furnace. And before I'm given the legal advice, nothing about it breaks county code for an older home... although, it wouldn't pass "new construction" code.

All the stuff you're told "will cause" a creosote problem ain't necessarily true... you need to replace the words "will cause" with the words "increases the odds of". My chimney runs up through the center of the house; it's always warm, so it always has a strong draft... and the two open hood type gas appliances allow plenty of air/gas velocity up through it. Basically, a warm chimney and a relatively fast up-flow means nothing condenses on the walls... therefore no creosote problem.

And I have something to compare that to...
The place I lived before had an outside (north side) brick 'n' mortar chimney, same appliance set-up... draft was a problem, and creosote was an issue (even had a couple chimney fires). I moved the little home-made wood furnace from there to here, used it for several years... no creosote (shrug)

Now... no matter how well I run it, there ain't no way my (so-called) smoke dragon wood furnace runs near as clean as a properly operated "certified" box... but that don't automatically equal a dirty chimney. My point is, on the flip side, a super clean chimney don't automatically mean you're getting a super clean burn either. To gauge how clean your box burns, based solely on the results of a chimney cleaning... well... it goes back to the gasoline mileage thing I used as an example. Without something else to gauge it against, a clean chimney means nothing more than a clean chimney... crediting the magic box for it is nothing but the wanting, or needing, to believe in magic.

I mean... c'mon... there's been plenty of posts on this board about dirty chimneys and creosote problems from members using one of the magic boxes. Most of the replies pass it off as user error, such as wet wood, damping back the fire too much, too many elbows in the flue pipe, and whatnot... but has anyone ever considered that the box itself, "certified" or not, is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? Has anyone ever considered that (so-called) user error and flue pipe set-up is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? Has anyone ever considered that wet wood or a smoldering fire is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? My flue comes out the back of the "smoke dragon" box, makes an immediate 90° vertical for 2-feet, then the 6" transitions into an 8" tee (joining with the 4" gas furnace flue) where it makes another 90° horizontal for 2-feet, then another 90° after entering the (unlined) chimney. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts if I had a creosote plugged chimney y'all would be telling me it was because of my "smoke dragon", my flue setup, the "smoldering" fire when the dragon idles, and likely someone would tell me I needed a moisture meter. But I don't have a problem, I don't even have a dirty chimney, so what does that tell you about the relationship between the magic box and a clean chimney... between the flue set-up and a clean chimney... between user error and a clean chimney??

It just flat ain't as simple as a magic box... there ain't no magic... never was, never will be.
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[slowp]

I don't recall calling it a "magic bean". I simply posted the results of the chimney cleaning. So many folks have dissed the new woodstoves, that I think some positive news on them is warranted. By simply posting the acronym of EPA, one sets off the anger and distrust although it is milder than seen in the so called political (whacko) forum. Oh, and outside of this forum, I'd never heard the term smoke dragon.

I'm sitting in front of the stove right now, waiting for the house to heat up. I do let it go out at night because the house is too warm for sleeping with it going. I like to have a window open, or cracked open so the house was 57 this morning and outdoors a balmy 31. We've warmed up a little.

Maybe that's why I have a clean chimney? I don't try to keep the fire going all night? Who knows? But all the disinformation about new stoves being crappy and impossible to get going is untrue.

And, I advocate a roof or cover of some sort over woodpiles in THIS climate.

 

[greendohn]

My stove has flu fires every now and then,,it starts as a blinking red glow, the ss cap starts to glow and then the flames!! It goes off like it's fired by l.p. gas and belches embers the size of yer' finger tip.
At nite time, it's a sight to behold,,,(admittedly, it's a very rare occasion now days since I have learned to run it more efficiently and have scored better wood over the past few years)

 

[slowp]

Here it is. I've got a mix of Doug-fir and alder burning. It is set up in the middleish part of the house, the house is 1440 sq. ft. and was built in 2010. It is one story and no basement.

 

[Whitespider]

slowp, my last post about the magic wasn't directed at you... it was just a general, yet related post to the conversation.
Still... although you didn't call it a "magic bean"... the title of this thread alone (posted by you) implies the stove is at least a major reason for the chimney cleaning results, if not the sole reason...
"The Chimney and the Beyond EPA Standards Stove"
You even state in the OP it complies to stricter standards than EPA "certified" stoves...

My woodstove is a Warshington State certified stove so it has stricter requirements than the national ones.

And then you further state in a later post...

So many folks have dissed the new woodstoves, that I think some positive news on them is warranted.

So don't even try and tell me you ain't crediting the stove for your clean chimney... I ain't buyin' the denial.

What was that I said about the fuel mileage in my truck??
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[Chris-PA]

I mean... c'mon... there's been plenty of posts on this board about dirty chimneys and creosote problems from members using one of the magic boxes. Most of the replies pass it off as user error, such as wet wood, damping back the fire too much, too many elbows in the flue pipe, and whatnot... but has anyone ever considered that the box itself, "certified" or not, is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? Has anyone ever considered that (so-called) user error and flue pipe set-up is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? Has anyone ever considered that wet wood or a smoldering fire is only a minor contributor to how clean the chimney runs?? My flue comes out the back of the "smoke dragon" box, makes an immediate 90° vertical for 2-feet, then the 6" transitions into an 8" tee (joining with the 4" gas furnace flue) where it makes another 90° horizontal for 2-feet, then another 90° after entering the (unlined) chimney. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts if I had a creosote plugged chimney y'all would be telling me it was because of my "smoke dragon", my flue setup, the "smoldering" fire when the dragon idles, and likely someone would tell me I needed a moisture meter. But I don't have a problem, I don't even have a dirty chimney, so what does that tell you about the relationship between the magic box and a clean chimney... between the flue set-up and a clean chimney... between user error and a clean chimney??

OK, but some people do have problems with dirty chimneys - if it's not from any of those things, then what do you think does cause it?

 

[Whitespider]

...what do you think does cause it?

Going on my experiences and comparisons (more than I've posted in this thread)... I'd have to say the major contributors are poor chimney draft and/or a cold chimney.
You asked me what I "think"... and that's how I answered.
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[CWME]

Personally I know MY chimney has more control on the build up of creosote than the stove. My chimney is a two flue block with 7" clay liners on the outside of the house. It is just about the worst setup I could get for myself I think. I ran my Englander wood furnace from my shop in the house for the first year and had a decent amount of build up. Run hot or dampered down for longer overnight burns didn't make much difference in the build up. I switched to an Englander 30-NC EPA job which I added an air jacket too making it into more of a wood furnace. It ran great with the secondary combustion going and all that but I still had build up in the chimney. Not as much as the bigger wood furnace but that was due mostly to the consumption of half the wood with the smaller stove. My weak point is the chimney, not my wood supply or stove I am burning so far. My wood is 2-3 years of seasoning on average now.

With that said, the Englander furnace puts out a dirty brown smoke compared to my new Drolet heatmax's white. The volume of smoke on the Englander is at least 5-6 times that of the Drolet. I had the Englander running in my shop with the Drolet in the house the other day and the smoke difference was quiet an eye opener. Burning wood from the same wood supply BTW. Does that mean I was getting creosote in one and not the other, I don't think so. Both chimneys are outside the buildings and make creosote no matter what I do, how I burn(within reason here), or what stove I run in my limited experience. My only hope is that the Drolet with the major difference in color and amount of smoke means that there is less stuff to be deposited overall. Don't know being the first season with it, but based on the other EPA stove I bet I still have build up to some degree.

All I have proved so far is that the EPA label did not garantee me a creosote free chimney. Any sales pitch contrary to that is unfounded without knowledge of the consumer's entire system.

 

[Whitespider]

OK... on the flip side of what CWME posted...
Dad had a barrel stove in his finished, walk-out basement connected to the same brick 'n' mortar chimney his gas furnace was, it ran up through the center of the house (i.e., always warm, always a strong draft)... never had a creosote issue, never cleaned the chimney.
When he moved into his new home I took the barrel stove and installed in the aforementioned farm house with the outside brick 'n' mortar chimney (i.e., cold chimney, poor draft)... horrible creosote problem.
I had that same barrel stove installed in my current home (i.e., warm chimney, great draft) for two seasons until I finished rebuilding the little homemade furnace... no creosote, no chimney cleaning.
After that I tried the barrel out in my shop with the flue running out a window and the chimney running up an outside wall (i.e., cold chimney, poor draft)... horrible creosote problem.
By-the-way, I still have that barrel stove out in the shed (needs a new barrel now)... I'm considering getting rid of the POS EPA box and replacing it with the barrel now that I have a double-walled chimney running straight up and out the roof (i.e., warm chimney, great draft)... I just need to get 'round to rebuilding it.
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[slowp]

Whitespider, why do you seem to feel threatened? My stove is a beyond the national standards stove. It has to be if sold in this state. Those are facts. Not bragging--facts as to how stoves are certified. I don't know the details, only that my stove is approved to be sold in this state. It's just like we have the strictest forest practice rules in the nation. Not bragging--no emotions, just facts. Look it up, if you so desire. I'm sure you will.

If makes you feel threatened, so be it. Facts are facts, and this stove is a model that can legally be sold in our state, like it or not. The stove works and does the job expected and in my case, beyond expectations.

I was expecting a lecture from the chimney guy about not having the chimney cleaned each year. A report of creosote. There was neither--more facts. No emotions.
Facts.

Read any thread where EPA is mentioned. The emotions come out, the hate of regulations, the bitterness. The Constitution is interpreted, the guns loaded, see, I can add exaggeration and emotion too. But I have tried not to do that.

Read your old thread how your stove was not working properly. That misled folks to think that new stoves could not heat. Was that OK? Would it have been OK to have my post titled Beyond EPA Standards Stove Is A Piece Of Excrement? I imagine you'd chime right in and approve such a thread, except I won't be posting that because it is not factual.

Pick away, pick away, if you have the time. The stove works, the chimney was clean, and that's it. And yes, I do suspect that a stove designed to emit less particles will have a cleaner chimney, if one burns the kind of wood that one should.

If you are so concerned, why not fund a study? Do your experiment, except for the sake of good science, you should have an unbiased person doing the experiment.

 

[Chris-PA]

Going on my experiences and comparisons (more than I've posted in this thread)... I'd have to say the major contributors are poor chimney draft and/or a cold chimney.
You asked me what I "think"... and that's how I answered.
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Actually I would tend to agree that a cold chimney is probably the worst offender. Pretty clearly the more stuff is in the flue gases to precipitate out the greater likelihood of it happening too, but if it's not given a reason to stick to the flue walls it should go out the top.

All I have proved so far is that the EPA label did not garantee me a creosote free chimney. Any sales pitch contrary to that is unfounded without knowledge of the consumer's entire system.

Unfortunately there is too much confusion about what these stoves are intended to do, which leaves people vulnerable to all sorts of claims. That in turn leads to the conclusion that they don't work, which I disagree with.

 

[Whitespider]

Unfortunately there is too much confusion about what these stoves are intended to do...

I'd say we're likely in 100% agreement on that.
I'd also say we're likely in 100% disagreement on what they're "intended to do"... or, more correctly, what the intent of the regulations are.
But that's another topic, for another thread... and we're likely in agreement on that also.
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[Whitespider]

Whitespider, why do you seem to feel threatened?
Read your old thread how your stove was not working properly. That misled folks to think that new stoves could not heat.

Threatened??
My dear... "I" do not feel threatened, I have no reason to feel that way... that's a "fact" (but I do sometimes wonder if your ideology is threatened by my posts).
You should stick to the "facts", and form conclusions based on those "facts"... not rearrange the "facts" to support what you want, or need, to believe.

Properly?? Misleading??
You shouldn't "mislead" folks on what my previous post were about, or what they said. The "fact" is, I've stated more than once, when my new-fangled stove was heating it made more heat than any other I'd used... but it was short-lived. I never once claimed it "could not heat", I claimed it wouldn't make enough heat once the secondary shut-down, and reloading to bring the heat level back up (before the burn cycle completed... i.e., the coals burned out) caused the box to fill with charcoal, making it impossible to reload. Therefore I was shoveling out bucket loads of unconsumed fuel to make more room... in order to make enough continuous heat, using approximately the same size box, I wasted way more fuel than the (so-called) efficiency was supposed to save me. My claim was that the new-fangled stoves were not the best choice for everyone, under all conditions... nothing more than that. If anyone was "misled" by that... it wasn't my fault. That, my dear, is the "facts"... which ain't anywhere near what your rearrangement of them is attempting to claim.

I still ain't buyin' your denial.
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[svk]

opcorn:

 

[Deleted member 83629]

opinions are like as$%#@! everybody has one, you're beating a dead horse here.

 

[Whitespider]

...you're beating a dead horse here.

Is that an opinion??
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[Deleted member 83629]

yep it is now go stoke the fire before the pipes freeze.

 

[Cerran]

Here it is. I've got a mix of Doug-fir and alder burning. It is set up in the middleish part of the house, the house is 1440 sq. ft. and was built in 2010. It is one story and no basement.
View attachment 379400

Looks like a Quadrafire 3100 or 4300 step top with the ACC system.

I have a Quad 3100i ACT (insert version)I've had for 10 years that I love here and even with a short chimney (12 feet) I get good performance and few problems with creosote buildup (other than the bird screen on my rain cap). I think you'll find it works really well and is pretty easy to maintain.

Regardless of Spidey's rantings, as a whole the new stoves are cleaner burning than the stoves of yesteryear and do put out more heat and generally use less wood. They are however more finicky about having dry wood.