The not-so-difficult to run EPA stove

[stihly dan]

I'm helping my son with a book report. Can anyone confirm that it was Mark Twain who said "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"?

Wait- what are we talking about here?

That's just not nice.

 

[Whitespider]

I would strongly suggest your son find someone else to help him with his homework...

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
- George Carlin

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
(often attributed to Mark Twain, but unconfirmed)

But there are a couple of confirmed quotes from Mark Twain that my apply here...

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
- Mark Twain

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
- Mark Twain

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Mark Twain
*

 

[Hddnis]

I wish that were the case... I fiddle with it because it stops heating.
That explanation don't hold water... I don't fiddle with my furnace, I don't worry it one iota.
...*

No worries, I didn't mean it by way of picking on you. I based it mostly on you being one of very few guys I know that totally rebuilt a stove into a furnace and customized it to boot. Not many will go to that trouble.


Mr. HE

 

[Steve NW WI]

I wish that were the case... I fiddle with it because it stops heating.
That explanation don't hold water... I don't fiddle with my furnace, I don't worry it one iota.

As far as difficult... I don't believe I ever said "difficult"... I believe I said a PITA to be constantly fiddling with it to keep it heating and/or burning down the coals.
Yesterday morning at 4:30 AM I opened the door of my furnace and tossed some firewood in, closed the door, walked away... that's it, open door, load wood, close door, nothing more. I thought maybe I'd need to add more before the house came up to temp... but it wasn't that cold out, so one loading was enough. We actually made it into the lower 30's late yesterday afternoon, and at 9:30 last night it was still 72° in the house so I didn't even check the furnace before bed. This morning, at 5:00 AM, 24½ hours after touching it last, 67° in the house, I opened the door of the furnace, saw there was a couple coals still glowing, tossed some wood in, closed the door, walked away... that's it, open door, load wood, close door, nothing more. So, over a 24½ hour period (from 4:30 AM yesterday to 5:00 AM today) I spent a total of maybe 60 seconds... maybe 60 seconds, likely less... "fiddling" with my furnace.

It ain't, and never has been a question of "difficult" to run... just a PITA to run because it requires constant attention to keep heating.
I'm happy for you that your new-fangled stove runs good for you, or as you want it to... mine don't run, or heat worth sour owl crap.
On the other hand... my old fashion, non-EPA certified, smoke dragon furnace nearly runs itself, heats like a Banshee when needed, and is damn miserly on wood consumption during times of "normal" temperatures... it uses less than that EPA-certified stove I have ever did. (shrug) I don't see how I could expect or ask for anything more, it does exactly what I expect and ask it to do.

Steve NW WI,
Did I say, "the new stoves need "constant fiddling" to work right"?? (As in a "blanket" statement.)
Or did I say mine does, and pointed out where others have said the same thing to some degree... such as dragging coals around, placing splits just so to get coals burning down (actually, that one seems quite common, almost universal), making adjustments during the burn cycle, low heat output during the coaling stage, etc., etc., etc. OK, so your's works wonderfully for your purpose, but that don't seem to be the universal consensus... many (not all) are saying theirs requires more attention than the old smoke dragon did, some (not all) are saying a lot more attention. My smoke dragon requires near zero attention... and other than an occasional flue damper adjustment, none of my other smoke dragons required much in the way of attention either.

I've always believe in the KISS theory of doing things... simplicity normally equates to a wider range of usability, less chance for "issues", and much simpler "work-a-rounds" if any "issues" do materialize. Ya' wanna' call it a campfire in a box?? OK , call it whatever ya' like... makes no matter to me. I'm gonna' stick with what works well, what works well over an almost infinite range, and what has worked well since way before I was here. Obviously some (if not many) are finding the new-fangled stoves somewhat finicky under many conditions (just read the posts)... why take the risk, when what has always worked, still works?? KISS‼
*

I spent a little time looking, and didn't find any direct quotes from you that state what I implied. I'll hold my ground with the belief that you have that opinion however. Specifically, the post that got me to start this thread was this one: What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate.

The reason your stove didn't work in your application, as some of us have tried to tell you repeatedly, it that it was simply TOO FRICKIN SMALL for your heat loads. Going from a 2.1 cf firebox to one 250% bigger solved your issues...I'll be damned.

Edited heavily pre-posting to keep me from having to send myself to banned camp.

 

[Whitespider]

No worries, I didn't mean it by way of picking on you.

No worries over here either... I didn't take your post as picking on me at all.
*

 

[oldspark]

That's just not nice.

Yea all the others who have had trouble with the new stoves (including me) are idiots also.
I have read a lot of posts over the last 5 years or so and many do not like the new stoves, some was wood related but some just do not like them.

 

[Whitespider]

Specifically, the post that got me to start this thread was this one: What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate.
The reason your stove didn't work in your application, as some of us have tried to tell you repeatedly, it that it was simply TOO FRICKIN SMALL for your heat loads.

Oh c'mon Steve, that post was a direct response to another's slam towards me.
Have you forgotten that the stove is now being used to heat a 480²ft area and is actually performing as bad or worse?? It was sunny and in the low 30's here on Sunday, near no wind. I started the fire out in the shop 'round 10:30 AM, butchered a deer I had hanging, then the neighbor and I sat and drank a box of beer... the best I could do in just over 6 hours was 66°, and a box almost totally full of coals. If a 2.1²ft firebox can't heat 480²ft on a day like that...?? So you're saying it's still TOO FRICKIN SMALL... seriously??

Well, if that actually is the problem, and I actually do buy that explanation... how does that render my opinion(s) false?
Yup, it's a $3000.oo charcoal maker. Charcoal is produced by charring wood in a low temperature, low oxygen environment... exactly what this firebox does.
I mean, were talking less that 500²ft for cripes sake, about like a medium-large living room... I could make a stove from a 5-gallon pail that would heat that on a 30°, windless, sunny day‼ I won't deny that I likely was asking a bit much from it as a whole-home heater... but, c'mon man, we're on a new page now. Nothing has changed... good heat at peak flame stage that drops off rapidly as it gets closer to the coaling stage, and near no heat from a coal bed, they just slowly die out... while you can touch the bare metal of the stove with your hand. Adding more wood just makes more coals... and because the coals reduce the amount of wood that can be added, heat from peak flame stage is reduced. The added coals smother those below... eventually you shovel out a 5-gallon bucket of charcoal. It's a never-ending cycle of frustration.

And I ain't the only one experiencing these and other issues with secondary combustion fireboxes... leading me to believe they can be frustratingly finicky depending on any number of variables. I'm just not interested in finicky. Like has been said, time 'n' time again, about many new-fangled things...
"They work great... when they work."

By-the-way... glad you didn't have to send yourself to camp... someone needs to be here and knock me back every now 'n' then.
*

 

[Steve NW WI]

Spidey - humor me for a bit. Next time you're out in your shop, close down the stove controls as soon as the stove gets good-n-hot. I mean all the way down, closed up. Maybe not the flue damper, cause I don't even run one. At least in MY stove, that means that nearly the only flames you'll see are coming from the secondaries, very little if any coming from the wood itself. I THINK you'll see a lot longer "useful" heat.

As to the coals not giving off any heat - I don't friggin know. I just know my stove is still warm (stove top too hot for more than a quick touch, snap disc operated small blower on the stove still running most of the time) 10 hours after a fill, and while it's not keeping up with MY heat load at the far end of the cycle in real cold, it's still making heat, and the coals are burning off.

The reason is fairly simple. The more I have my draft control open, the higher the stack temps are. At a certain point, I'm heating my outside chimney instead of my house. I don't like to heat outside unless I'm drinking by a bonfire. WFO on the draft control on my stove is only useful to get a fire started. I can hold stove top temps of 6-800 with the control just cracked off of full closed.

If this doesn't help, the only bit of advice I have left is to come to the IA GTG, pull up a chair next to Ronaldo, and compare notes. Don't worry, he's a nice guy.

Hope this posts, I lost it once already and ain't got time to retype it again.

 

[oldspark]

pidey - humor me for a bit. Next time you're out in your shop, close down the stove controls as soon as the stove gets good-n-hot. I mean all the way down, closed up. Maybe not the flue damper, cause I don't even run one. At least in MY stove, that means that nearly the only flames you'll see are coming from the secondaries, very little if any coming from the wood itself. I THINK you'll see a lot longer "useful" heat.

My stove will not run like that, if I turn the air down to the minimum the stove wont heat the house when its cold, stove seems to work well until it gets really cold and then its just a PITA, today is one of those days so I have a case of the ass about my stove today.

 

[Whitespider]

My stove will not run like that...

Mine won't either... the secondary will sputter for awhile and goes out, then thick smoke bellows from the chimney. Even if the secondary continues to do the "sputtering" thing the chimney will smoke some and it won't make enough heat to be of any value. It'll run at about ¾ closed (or a touch more) but don't make a lot of heat, it runs best set somewhere between ½ and ¾ closed. Opening it more than ½ way doesn't really make any noticeable difference in the lower fire... but it will cause the secondary to shoot impressive jets of flame straight down into the wood.

But, I haven't tried shutting the control (there's only one) all the way down since moving it to the shop... so I'll humor you Steve NW WI, I'll try it again.
*

 

[NSMaple1]

I don't have a stove, but I did go from a smoker to a clean burner. Boilers - so not quite apples to apples, I realize. I had to make some small adjustments in the way I burned, and the way I got a fire going - those were minimal and neither the before nor the after is any easier or harder than the other. But I will say - if the wood is not DRY, I can experience some of the same issues I read about on here of those having difficulties with their EPA stove.

It needs to be DRY, and DRY wood might not be as DRY as one thinks.

That's all I have for this one....

 

[oldspark]

All my wood is below 20%
A lot of variables involved (type of wood, amount of draft) so hard to tell some one exactly where to set their stove.

 

[Whitespider]

Three years stacked... elm, hard maple, oak, and some odds 'n' ends.
Three years stacked in single rows, full sun and wind... doubtful it could get any dryer, just older.
*

 

[cmsmoke]

Put a ceiling in that shop. It will make a huge difference. Insulate the ceiling and it will run you out of there. My 70,000 BTU torpedo heater won,t heat my 380 sq. ft. shed, running continuously. Put it in my insulated 1,050 sq. ft. garage and you will be in a tee shirt within 20 minutes and it will cycle with the thermostat after that.

 

[Chris-PA]

On my US Stoves Magnolia I cannot stop the inlet all the way down as that block both primary and secondary air and puts it out. But there are often considerable differences between secondary combustion stoves, especially on the inlet controls.

 

[Ronaldo]

Whitespider,
Seems there has got to be something that is not functioning correctly on that stove. I do a hot reload with nice bed of coals and add wood (usually dry Elm) ,let it get good and charred and allow magnetic stove pipe thermometer to read 500-700 degrees (doesnt take very long) then shut draft down all the way or a hair open. This is how I set it for overnight burns or when we are leaving house for a while. Wifey is home most days and she adds wood when needed and adjusts draft to her comfort level during daytime, she likes to be warm and generally keeps temps in the mid 70s. The only time the draft is open past half is when reloading or starting fire. If I gave this thing more air it would get way too hot and roast us out of the house. During extreme cold we may run draft lever near half open, but not usually for too long.
That is the way my P.E. works.

 

[Oxford]

Ronaldo-

To paraphrase Groucho Marx: who are you going to believe, Whitespider or your lying eyes? There's no way you could be warm with that stove. You and your wife must be cold and just don't know it.

 

[brenndatomu]

Ronaldo, as Oxford just said, you gotta be Eskimo or something, cause everybody knows those PEs don't work!
Sounds like you have a good install. Spideys stove is either faulty (possible) or his draft was funky (my arm chair quarterback gut feeling)
It is generally accepted that the chimney is the engine that drives the stove, so it seems the chimney is pretty important, I mean heck, the only difference between a stock Mustang and a 10 sec car is the engine (mainly)
Spidey absolutely refused to get a draft reading (cause the stove "could suck up a small dog" or something like that, when the door was open) or get a flue temp, something most any good stove shop would do right off the bat when troubleshooting a troublesome stove. So don't be comin round here gushing about your stove, spouting off pipe temps, cuz that ain't it, it's just those new fangled EPA stoves is just junk, JUNK I TELL YA!
Anyways,
Spidey, FWIW, my Yukon furnace is rated for 140k BTU (well, 112 after losses) and I think it would take 2-3 hours for even it to bring your unfinished/uninsulated garage up to temp. Something about heating up the mass of a xx thousand pound building (read: heat sink) with air leaks...oh, and the Yukon brings air in under the fire, (just so we don't go there )

I guess it is just the mechanic in me, always gotta figure everything out, then fix it, but I'd love to get my hands on the former "stovace" for a while, see what the heck...

 

[oldspark]

Whitespider,
Seems there has got to be something that is not functioning correctly on that stove. I do a hot reload with nice bed of coals and add wood (usually dry Elm) ,let it get good and charred and allow magnetic stove pipe thermometer to read 500-700 degrees (doesnt take very long) then shut draft down all the way or a hair open. This is how I set it for overnight burns or when we are leaving house for a while. Wifey is home most days and she adds wood when needed and adjusts draft to her comfort level during daytime, she likes to be warm and generally keeps temps in the mid 70s. The only time the draft is open past half is when reloading or starting fire. If I gave this thing more air it would get way too hot and roast us out of the house. During extreme cold we may run draft lever near half open, but not usually for too long.
That is the way my P.E. works.

Sounds like your flue temps are high like mine (summit) but I can not get my stove top as hot as I want, I think my draft is a little too strong, if I don't keep an eye on the stove I have no idea how high the flue temps would go.
My old stove kicked out more heat with lower flue temps..
If I get a break from the whether I need to try a damper again

 

[Ronaldo]

I am not trying to fuel the fire here. I am simply speaking of my experiences. I have used an Earth Stove fireplace insert that had a catalytic combuster when I lived in Wyoming for a number of years, and it was my first experience with newer stoves. It worked amazingly well just burning Ponderosa Pine. I hated to leave it when we moved back to Iowa! I have used a Woodstock Soapstone Palladian (catalytic) for a while and it did a fine job of heating, although not quite as big of firebox as the P E. Have been using this PE now for over 13 years and if it was problematic, hard to use or required constant fiddling to get good heat results, I certainly would not be singing its praises. I would be looking for its replacement!
Time to get some sleep-going to load her up for a nice overnight burn.

Ron