The not-so-difficult to run EPA stove

[Whitespider]

Reminds me a lot of when you first signed on here and went on and on about the benefits of pouring used motor oil on your firewood.

Heck man, I still do that
I reckon, going on how cold it's been this year, and what I've used so far, I'm lookin' at burning in the neighborhood of 7½ cord in the furnace and shop this year (give or take a half).
Which, by-the-way, is what I used in the "stovace" last year when average temperatures were running some 10° to 20° warmer (but winter did drag on late last year).
Where I get really confused is, why so many people (and you do it the most often) post how "happy" other users are... I mean, how exactly does that relate to me?? And then when I point out that there are also a few not so "happy", it's scoffed at and ridiculed. Double standard I guess... depends on your side of the fence, don't it?? Your side is "right", my side is "wrong"... it never occurs to you that there may be both "right" and "wrong" on both sides of that fence... does it?? Even when I try to have a constructive discussion you revert to being a pompous, condescending, arrogant azz... and bring up things totally unrelated to the topic in some sort of attempt to discredit anything I have said, or may say (such as the used oil).

So I guess I'll say the same thing to you...
Why not just use the "ignore" function and save yourself all this irritation I obviously give you??
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[Steve NW WI]

Spidey, I'm ALMOST starting to believe there could be a factory defect with your stove. A hole not punched, an air duct with something wedged in it, something along those lines. I just can't make 2+2 equal 4 from a couple hundred miles away.

Is this a diagram of your stove, or just a representative pic? If it's yours, it's showing PRIMARY air (2 - Main Cumbustion Air) coming in low and in front. That should be enough to keep the coals burning down and producing heat, at least in my mind. Can you explain for me a little better the difference between the primary and boost air on your machine?

This drives me nuts, partially because of the 500 page book of arguments we could print from it, but also because if I take what you say at face value, I can't figure it out, and I really hope that I'm smart enough to outwit a simple box of steel, block, and glass.

I'm about to the point of building one myself, with all sorts of possible adjustments, maybe some fancy sensors to track what's going on, just to learn better exactly how doing what, where, at what time affects performance. Heck, maybe I can make one that will even pass the Spidey test. If I can do that, I'll be retired before 50.

 

[naturelover]

LOL
That's easy... when it stops heating‼
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Is this as soon as it stops burning the wood or when the secondaries stop?

Maybe try opening it sooner, to keep the temps and the draft up. If your stove or chimney is cooling too much before you are fully opening it, maybe it's losing its draft.

As say, if you get a thermometer on there, it could help in diagnosis.


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[oldspark]

I still marvel at how well these stoves work, it just never gets old

Yep me too.

Spidey, I'm ALMOST starting to believe there could be a factory defect with your stove. A hole not punched, an air duct with something wedged in it, something along those lines. I just can't make 2+2 equal 4 from a couple hundred miles away.

Is this a diagram of your stove, or just a representative pic? If it's yours, it's showing PRIMARY air (2 - Main Cumbustion Air) coming in low and in front. That should be enough to keep the coals burning down and producing heat, at least in my mind. Can you explain for me a little better the difference between the primary and boost air on your machine?

This drives me nuts, partially because of the 500 page book of arguments we could print from it, but also because if I take what you say at face value, I can't figure it out, and I really hope that I'm smart enough to outwit a simple box of steel, block, and glass.

I'm about to the point of building one myself, with all sorts of possible adjustments, maybe some fancy sensors to track what's going on, just to learn better exactly how doing what, where, at what time affects performance. Heck, maybe I can make one that will even pass the Spidey test. If I can do that, I'll be retired before 50.

I hope you figure it out as mine does the same exact thing.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Yep me too.

I hope you figure it out as mine does the same exact thing.

IF, I'll say again, IF there's something effed up from the factory on some of these stoves (obviously not all of em, some are reported to work fine) - there's a fighting chance that more than one of em has the same defect.

Any chance your stoves have build dates or serial numbers on the UL tag? My Drolet does. It'd be interesting to see if maybe yours and Spideys were close together in build sequence, and Ronaldos was built at a different time.

 

[Whitespider]

Steve NW WI,
That's the picture in the manual... it's pretty damn close but not an exact representation of the external part of the stove..
I think if you look real close you'll what they are calling "Main Combustion Air" is nothing more than the "Air Wash System" air after it makes the turn into the pile of wood. Look close and you will see some of the arrows representing the "Air Wash System" air curving into the fire. I suppose they could also be labeling the combination of "Air Wash System" air and "Boost Air" as "Main Combustion Air" (shrug). But like I said, the "Boost Air" is fed by a single ¼ inch hole... and I only see evidence of it actually feeding any air during cold starts (such as flickering flame or smoke movement). Anyway... that's the best I've got.

addendum; Crap, my UL tag may have gotten trashed in the move up the steps and into the shop... I'll check this weekend though.
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[Steve NW WI]

I see it now - not the clearest pic. POSSIBLY - it looks like from the primary tube running above the door, some outlets are designed to point at the door (air wash) and some down toward the fire/coals. Best guess now is not enough primary air velocity to overcome draft, and therefore not getting air far enough down/back to keep the coals burning. Could go back to the draft argument, or could be the air feed tube not drilled properly????

Signing off for now, going to work and hate typing on my yuppie phone.

 

[Whitespider]

Funny... You are aware your self-importance is showing, right?? If I thought you were a "thorn in my side" I'd use the "ignore" function in a heartbeat.
See... I actually find the narcissism quite entertaining.

Just use the "ignore" function.

 

[Whitespider]

Is this as soon as it stops burning the wood or when the secondaries stop?
Maybe try opening it sooner, to keep the temps and the draft up. If your stove or chimney is cooling too much before you are fully opening it, maybe it's losing its draft.
As say, if you get a thermometer on there, it could help in diagnosis.

Sorry... I wasn't ignoring your post, just sort'a got sidetracked.
The rapid decline in heat output begins as soon as the secondary burn stops; when the blower is running you'll notice a significant drop within a minute. By the time the fire totally collapses into coals heat output pretty much bottoms out... which ain't very long after the secondary stops. And, of course, as I've said, the greater the temperature difference between inside and outside, the more dramatic and severe this output drop seems to be. I've played quite a bit with the draft control... and I'll likely play with it a lot more over the next few weeks in the shop.
But really, in direct response to your post, there has never been any sort of evidence that draft is weak or lost... I can't remember even the slightest puff of smoke coming out the door when opening it. Heck, when I stir the coals most of the sparks even get sucked up and away. I know that's not very scientific... but... gut feelings ya' know??
Yeah, I know... thermometers, manometers, and what not... if I had them laying around I'd use them so you guys could see the hard numbers you want... but I don't, so there we are (shrug). Besides, I'm just not hip on drilling (what I consider anyway) unnecessary holes in my flue pipe, just seems wrong to me... and spending $10 on something requiring a hole in the flue pipe seems even more wrong. Ya' know?? The "Lost in the 50's" thing I guess... just too much old school in me I suppose.

+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.

 

[brenndatomu]

Finding the PE airflow diagram a bit tough to decipher, I looked up the manual for this stove, I believe this is the correct one. http://pacificenergy.net/files/9213/8057/6138/super_spectrum.pdf First off, not a very impressive manual, I see your frustration with not having much to go off of, 'cause it's just vague! The website lists this stove as a "medium" stove, so I really believe it never stood a chance of heating your house, and prolly not the garage very well either. I think that is the bottom line issue. I noticed in the trouble shooting section of the manual that they say not to reload until the coals are burnt down to "quite small" So if doing that is not providing enough heat output, logically, the stove is just too small. BUT, I'm still not convinced that there isn't something else going on here though.
I looked on youtube to see if I could get a better idea of what the insides of this thing looks like, boy, there is quite a few PE vids there! Anyways, a couple things I began to wonder about, during the baffle removal/install process they mention checking the gasket between the baffle and the air tube up the back of the stove in the center (#16 on pg 15 of manual) is yours good Spidey?? Also, on the one vid, they talk about making sure that the brick retainers (13a & 13b on pg 15) that the baffle sits on are straight and the baffle is sitting on them flat, basically sealed between. I have read on another site, that a certain model stove (an Englander maybe?) has a reputation for their two piece baffle not quite sealing correctly, leaving a small gap, so guys "plug" it up by laying a welding rod in the gap. Supposedly it makes a HUGE difference in heat output and how the stove behaves.
OK, on page four of the manual, under monthly inspection, they say to check the boost tube cover, is this something that could be out of place, missing? If it is OK, then can you easily modify it to provide air at the base of the fire? That's likely what you said that you drilled more holes in already?
I hear ya on buying a manometer, BUT, if a $20 tool could have saved you all this headache...and drilling a 1/4" in the single wall flue pipe is no big deal, but you know that already, you had to do that to put in your manual damper. Just screw a short lag bolt in to plug the hole afterwards. I go back to the manometer cause...looking in the troubleshooting section of the manual it says...
Low Heat Output 1. Wood is wet - Use dry wood
2. Fire too small - Build a larger fi re
3. Draft too low - Chimney plugged or restricted, inspect and
clean
Take note of #3, not sayin your chimney is plugged, just a draft issue.
I think that's enough to chew on for now.

 

[Chris-PA]

Other than the "Boost Air" shown as #1 on the drawing, it looks like it functions like mine. Looking at the exploded view I do not see any separate air entrance for "Boost Air" but there is little detail.

From the exploded view there is a single air shutter at the lower back, which most likely controls all the air entering into the riser tube at the back of the firebox (again, just like mine). If it controlled only primary air there would be no need to have it at the back where the tube for heating the air is. The picture shows primary air as coming out over the manifold and washing down the door. This stove appears to function exactly as mine does - one control for both primary and secondary air - except for the "Boost Air" note which I do not think is a separate inlet.

 

[zogger]

Mud dauber nest in an airhole......

 

[Whitespider]

OK, one at a time... good thing I type fast.

Del_,
I believe it was you that mentioned running the air controls separately last winter. I actually talked a little about that in post #100 earlier today, and I also posted some results of that last winter... but nothing real in-depth. I will say it was an interesting and educational experiment. Actually it was kind'a fun watching how the fire reacted as I changed the relationship of the two... but it didn't do a lot for the coal bed issue(s). In the end I modified the linkage so the primary was a bit more open... sort'a set it where I felt it did the most overall good. I thought it would be really cool to put the secondary on some sort'a rigged, adjustable bimetallic spring (kind'a like the auto dampers found on smoke dragon furnaces). Then I guy could set the primary where he wanted it, set the secondary to... say... medium, and it would self-adjust during the burn. But, I never pursued it further... figured one thing at a time.

brenndatomu,
About the baffle... that little gasket in the back is a PITA, it disintegrates every time ya' take the baffle out. I finally quit buying them and made one using that flat, thin, stove door gasket (they call it ribbon or tape gasket?) and glued it in place using door gasket cement. The baffle never did sit perfectly flat on those rails, but there's some of that "matting" (like on top of the baffle) stuffed in behind the rails to seal everything... and the top "matting" seals the baffle to the sides. I took the rails out and "buffed" off the crud on top so the baffle would sit somewhat flatter, and tucked the "matting" in tight. After that the baffle sat snug and didn't wiggle and appeared to be well sealed on the rails.The boost tube cover is nothing more than a piece of angle iron with holes in it, it sit/leans on the box wall under the door and directs what little air come out of the ¼ inch boost hole in the lower air passage. If ya' bump the darn thing it falls into the bottom of the box... seriously, it's just a piece of angle iron sitting there.

And as far as drilling holes in the flue pipe. It ain't single wall pipe out in the shop, I'm using stainless steel double walled pipe... and drilling holes in it just sits wrong with me. I installed the flue damper (that I don't use 'cause it don't help nothing) in the short little trim piece just over the outlet so I wouldn't have to drill holes in the expensive pipe.

And finally...
3. Draft too low - Chimney plugged or restricted, inspect and
clean
I won't say never... but the chimney is fairly new, I mean I just put it up this fall and I don't use it all that much in the shop.
I know someone is gonna' argue with me, but seriously, trust me, it ain't a low draft problem... and I base that on more than just gut feeling... it has plenty of draft. But, it's easy to check for being plugged, it ain't that high on a garage roof... I'll check it this weekend. Heck, I can pop the baffle out, stick my head in the box, and look up... it's that easy.

Chris-PA,
Yup, one control for both the primary and secondary... a slide lever on the front connected via cable to linkage in the ash drawer area. The boost air uses the same inlet as the primary air. Both air inlets are located in the ash ash drawer area under the box.

+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.

 

[brenndatomu]

Mud dauber nest in an airhole......

LOL! That right there, I've been bit before, on the wazoo, HARD, by that right one right there!
Wouldn't that be hilarious, if ALL THIS, was due to a stinkin lil bug!!!
If memory serves, that stove did sit around in a garage or barn before it was bestowed upon him.

 

[zogger]

Mud dauber nest in an airhole......

LOL! That right there, I've been bit before, on the wazoo, HARD, by that right one right there!
Wouldn't that be hilarious, if ALL THIS, was due to a stinkin lil bug!!!
If memory serves, that stove did sit around in a garage or barn before it was bestowed upon him.

Once in my furnace in my old chevy camper van, another time the exhaust on my tanaka trimmer. Man, it doesn't take too much to plug things up to the "no workee" stage.

 

[Whitespider]

I noticed in the trouble shooting section of the manual that they say not to reload until the coals are burnt down to "quite small"

Oh, I forgot this one... two things about that...
1) It takes hours to burn them down... hours without heat‼
2) I downloaded the manual you linked to. It's the same one I have and I can't find where it says that. What page??

And yeah, the friggin' mud dauber thing would be funny, but only after I got over the embarrassment... which could take YEARS!!
But I'll check for such again...

+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.

 

[brenndatomu]

Last line page 17...

 

[Whitespider]

Yup ... found it now... flat missed that before.
Well that sucks... 'cause... well... that's like 3-5 hours without any meaningful heat.
So... I guess it-is-what-it-is

Barrel stove

+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.

 

[naturelover]

I'd think some shop air through the holes, sometimes the doghouse on the front can be unbolted too.

Buddy had a weedeater that wouldn't run, had me come and look. I pulled it over once and knew what it was.

Mud daubers had built in the muffler, completely clogging it..

No need to drill the pipe, just place one of the mag pipe therms on top of the stove, in the center and centered between the flue exit and front.

Got the Rutland at a farm supply store for 10 or so....




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[brenndatomu]

No need to drill the pipe, just place one of the mag pipe therms on top of the stove, in the center and centered between the flue exit and front.

Drillin holes for draft readings, not temp. Mag thermometer wouldn't work on a SS double wall pipe anyways