brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Maybe Steve can just wrap all this up into a Spidey EPA stove stickie!
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The not-so-difficult to run EPA stove
- Thread starter Steve NW WI
- Start date
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Well... I can say the manual don't lie (bolding and underlining mine).
2. High mass and thermal insulation:
The high mass (weight) acts as a heat storage
and the thermal insulation keeps the combustion
zone hot. Active flaming takes place during the
first part of the burn. During this stage, heat is
stored in the mass of the unit and is later released
slowly and evenly. As wood chars, active flaming
will diminish. This clean charcoal burning stage
will last for a considerable length of time and
refuelling should be avoided until the charcoal
base has become quite small.
It definitely releases that heat slowly... and it definitely takes it's sweet friggin' time doing it
+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.
2. High mass and thermal insulation:
The high mass (weight) acts as a heat storage
and the thermal insulation keeps the combustion
zone hot. Active flaming takes place during the
first part of the burn. During this stage, heat is
stored in the mass of the unit and is later released
slowly and evenly. As wood chars, active flaming
will diminish. This clean charcoal burning stage
will last for a considerable length of time and
refuelling should be avoided until the charcoal
base has become quite small.
It definitely releases that heat slowly... and it definitely takes it's sweet friggin' time doing it
+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.
zogger
Tree Freak
Yup ... found it now... flat missed that before.
Well that sucks... 'cause... well... that's like 3-5 hours without any meaningful heat.
So... I guess it-is-what-it-is
Barrel stove
+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.
Any way to pressurize the air input with a blower, like a forge blower or something? Speed up that burning down the coals to minutes instead of hours. Click, whirrrr, go have a cupajoe, come back, done, click off, shovel out ash, reload, light.
Not easily zogger... it would take a lot more doing that just swapping out the stove... a lot more.
You guys do realize this all just reinforces and puts me back to square one with my (personal) opinion don't ya'??
(Unless I find something I've missed on the stove itself... which I doubt) Stupid Design‼
+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.
You guys do realize this all just reinforces and puts me back to square one with my (personal) opinion don't ya'??
(Unless I find something I've missed on the stove itself... which I doubt) Stupid Design‼
+++++++++++++++++++
Just use the "ignore" function.
Steve NW WI
Unwanted Riff Raff.
Thatll be enough outta you pal. I'm already azz deep in overtime at my real job, now you want me to work here too?
Sheesh, just no pleasing some people
Vermonster
ArboristSite Operative
Lots of manufactured drama going on here...............
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naturelover
Tree Freak
Well, not to put on the pipe, but on the stove itself to see what temps it's reaching and how long it's sustaining those temps through the cycle.
I just don't see how it's ever getting cold enough for him to lay his hand on the stove.
I still believe it's just too small, but seems like something else is wrong somewhere.
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Locust Cutter
Sawing for Sanity
Not to add to the "fire" here but to add on to the Spidey/P.E. Bandwagon...
I define active fire as active flame/demonstrable heat output. The first load of the day from cold start is double stacked in a criss-cross pattern. Silver Maple, Ash, Piss Elm and Hakberry at 35-50 degrees and Hedge/Locust for colder temps. The first true load actively burns for about 3-4 hours with considerable heat output with the throttle on idle or near to it (after suitable ignition). After the active fire dies and it's just large burning coals I crank it open again to burn the coals down a bit. At this point I'm getting roughly 1/3 or less of the former output. If I continue to add wood to maintain active heat, it coals up to the point that within 6-8 hours I have to shovel burning coals out of the box to make room for more wood. At night I put 3 Good sized pieces of Hedge in and go to bed. 6-8 hours later, i dust the fine ash off of the coals put a few pieces on and it lights off.
Following Steve's explanation, my stove is working as advertised. Compared to the smoke dragons I grew up with, the coals account for a lot less of the active heat which bothers me. My M.I.L.'s Smoke dragon puts out good heat, even when down to only an active coal bed. I am positive that the problem is not as much the stove being fulty, but the drafts in my house mitigating the effect of the low-output mode and my expectation(s) for the amount and style of heat output. The P.E. seems to be geared off of the principle of putting out a lot of heat and then simmering down to a sustained level. I want a much more gradual arc on the output curve and longer duration than my stove was designed for and I have the largest P.E. fire box available. I DO need to do stove maintenance as I haven't done a thing to it in three years outside of replacing the fire brick, door seals (every season) and flue cleaning. It DOES burn very efficiently and hold coals for a long time. I just don't like the speed for which it chews up a log and then effectively dies down leaving me to either wait on the coal burn-down or shovel them out.
FWIW, I don't have a stove thermometer (flue or top style), wood moisture meter, or a way of checking the draft. I will get some of these tools when I can, but right now money's tight. If I open the door quickly it will back-puff for a second and the flue is 2.5 stories tall with the equivalent of 2x 90 degree bends. If I do it slowly, it doesn't. It is always burned at idle or near to it after the logs are fully ignited/charred. All of my wood that isn't Hedge is gray with the bark falling off when I pick up the splits off of the stack. I keep the ash pan cleaned out and periodically let it burn out completely to thoroughly vacuum out the burn chamber.
If I'm doing something fundamentally wrong, I'd love to know what as I'd love to get better performance. If not, then I generally agree with Spidey. I also no longer have a P.E. dealer near (w/in a 2.5 hr drive) as mine went out of business. So outside of talking to a factory tech, I have no one who is proficient in P.E. to come inspect my professionally installed setup to ensure that there isn't something either wrong with the stove, or with the flue install. I am not against EPA stoves and will likely by a Jotul Black bear to either augment or replace my current stove.
I define active fire as active flame/demonstrable heat output. The first load of the day from cold start is double stacked in a criss-cross pattern. Silver Maple, Ash, Piss Elm and Hakberry at 35-50 degrees and Hedge/Locust for colder temps. The first true load actively burns for about 3-4 hours with considerable heat output with the throttle on idle or near to it (after suitable ignition). After the active fire dies and it's just large burning coals I crank it open again to burn the coals down a bit. At this point I'm getting roughly 1/3 or less of the former output. If I continue to add wood to maintain active heat, it coals up to the point that within 6-8 hours I have to shovel burning coals out of the box to make room for more wood. At night I put 3 Good sized pieces of Hedge in and go to bed. 6-8 hours later, i dust the fine ash off of the coals put a few pieces on and it lights off.
Following Steve's explanation, my stove is working as advertised. Compared to the smoke dragons I grew up with, the coals account for a lot less of the active heat which bothers me. My M.I.L.'s Smoke dragon puts out good heat, even when down to only an active coal bed. I am positive that the problem is not as much the stove being fulty, but the drafts in my house mitigating the effect of the low-output mode and my expectation(s) for the amount and style of heat output. The P.E. seems to be geared off of the principle of putting out a lot of heat and then simmering down to a sustained level. I want a much more gradual arc on the output curve and longer duration than my stove was designed for and I have the largest P.E. fire box available. I DO need to do stove maintenance as I haven't done a thing to it in three years outside of replacing the fire brick, door seals (every season) and flue cleaning. It DOES burn very efficiently and hold coals for a long time. I just don't like the speed for which it chews up a log and then effectively dies down leaving me to either wait on the coal burn-down or shovel them out.
FWIW, I don't have a stove thermometer (flue or top style), wood moisture meter, or a way of checking the draft. I will get some of these tools when I can, but right now money's tight. If I open the door quickly it will back-puff for a second and the flue is 2.5 stories tall with the equivalent of 2x 90 degree bends. If I do it slowly, it doesn't. It is always burned at idle or near to it after the logs are fully ignited/charred. All of my wood that isn't Hedge is gray with the bark falling off when I pick up the splits off of the stack. I keep the ash pan cleaned out and periodically let it burn out completely to thoroughly vacuum out the burn chamber.
If I'm doing something fundamentally wrong, I'd love to know what as I'd love to get better performance. If not, then I generally agree with Spidey. I also no longer have a P.E. dealer near (w/in a 2.5 hr drive) as mine went out of business. So outside of talking to a factory tech, I have no one who is proficient in P.E. to come inspect my professionally installed setup to ensure that there isn't something either wrong with the stove, or with the flue install. I am not against EPA stoves and will likely by a Jotul Black bear to either augment or replace my current stove.
Locust Cutter, yep they can talk until they are blue in the face but all I had for heat for 30 years was my old stove and it did a great job with no problems, it is now in the shop and I am real close to putting in back in and trying it with the 6 inch chimney.
This new stove makes me want to puke.
This new stove makes me want to puke.
That's a darn good explanation of what happens Locust Cutter... or summation of it.
It, or mine, chews through the flame stage way too fast for my liking, and then piddles 'n' diddles through the coaling stage way too slow for my liking. I'm assuming the reason it runs through the flame stage in about half the time yours does is because it's the "medium" size rather than the "large" size. Flame stage is like 1, 2 hours tops, and likely even makes less heat during coaling... and pretty much all there is for heat is what exits the glass a radiant heat during coaling. Like you said, "I want (or need) a much more gradual arc on the output curve and longer duration than my stove was designed for."
The guy who gave it to me, my brother's FIL, had it installed in a little den... the house was sort'a a split level, and that den was the "split" level right off the garage. Insulated, only one outside wall with one single window, just big enough for a couch, couple chairs and a TV, and he raved about the way it worked... said he never had to "fill" it and it would burn all night. I'm guessin' it didn't take much to "maintain" the temperature in that room, I'm guessin' the coaling stage put out just enough heat to make that little room nice a cozy.
It's pretty much a space heater, a room heater... after all, that is what a stove is supposed to be, right??
Also, like you said, "Compared to the smoke dragons I grew up with, the coals account for a lot less of the active heat which bothers me. My M.I.L.'s Smoke dragon puts out good heat, even when down to only an active coal bed." It bothers me also... a lot. There just ain't much difference in heat output between the flame stage and the coaling stage in a more traditional style box... that just is-what-it-is. My furnace is still making heat when there's barely enough coals left to cover the grate; it ain't awesome heat, but enough heat to cycle the circulation blower... and if you open the door they're glowing bright translucent red with hot blue flames coming off them. That's what I need for my purposes, a more gradual, shallower, heating output curve... whether in my house or in my shop.
In the end, my new-fangled style box doesn't save me on fuel consumption or burn any cleaner... because I need the heat output in the upper-middle part of the curve near constantly (and there ain't really a "middle" part with this stove) I'm always adding wood. Adding wood cools the fire temporarily and causes smoke, builds the coal bed until I have to waste them... just as you're saying, and you have the "big" box (so does oldspark I believe). I just don't realize the benefit of "efficiency" or "cleaner burn"... it-is-what-it-is. The "bigger" box would be less troublesome I'm sure, but I don't see it ever being trouble-free for my application in the shop (or the house). In the right environment I'm sure they do a fine job... a tight, well insulated room/house, warmer climates, small(er) spaces, and whatnot. A different brand of new-fangled stove might work better (for me)... no way to know without trying one... so I guess I'll never know (unless someone gives me another one). I'll just swap it out this summer with a barrel... I've got a rusted-out one out in the old broken-down shed, I can use the "parts" off it and barrels are free (shrug). In these old farm buildings converted to shops, man caves, and whatnot the "barrel" is pretty much the "standard" heater in this area... they just always seem to get the job done.
oldspark,
Take a deep breath man... take a deep breath
Warmer weather is just a couple months away.
*
It, or mine, chews through the flame stage way too fast for my liking, and then piddles 'n' diddles through the coaling stage way too slow for my liking. I'm assuming the reason it runs through the flame stage in about half the time yours does is because it's the "medium" size rather than the "large" size. Flame stage is like 1, 2 hours tops, and likely even makes less heat during coaling... and pretty much all there is for heat is what exits the glass a radiant heat during coaling. Like you said, "I want (or need) a much more gradual arc on the output curve and longer duration than my stove was designed for."
The guy who gave it to me, my brother's FIL, had it installed in a little den... the house was sort'a a split level, and that den was the "split" level right off the garage. Insulated, only one outside wall with one single window, just big enough for a couch, couple chairs and a TV, and he raved about the way it worked... said he never had to "fill" it and it would burn all night. I'm guessin' it didn't take much to "maintain" the temperature in that room, I'm guessin' the coaling stage put out just enough heat to make that little room nice a cozy.
It's pretty much a space heater, a room heater... after all, that is what a stove is supposed to be, right??
Also, like you said, "Compared to the smoke dragons I grew up with, the coals account for a lot less of the active heat which bothers me. My M.I.L.'s Smoke dragon puts out good heat, even when down to only an active coal bed." It bothers me also... a lot. There just ain't much difference in heat output between the flame stage and the coaling stage in a more traditional style box... that just is-what-it-is. My furnace is still making heat when there's barely enough coals left to cover the grate; it ain't awesome heat, but enough heat to cycle the circulation blower... and if you open the door they're glowing bright translucent red with hot blue flames coming off them. That's what I need for my purposes, a more gradual, shallower, heating output curve... whether in my house or in my shop.
In the end, my new-fangled style box doesn't save me on fuel consumption or burn any cleaner... because I need the heat output in the upper-middle part of the curve near constantly (and there ain't really a "middle" part with this stove) I'm always adding wood. Adding wood cools the fire temporarily and causes smoke, builds the coal bed until I have to waste them... just as you're saying, and you have the "big" box (so does oldspark I believe). I just don't realize the benefit of "efficiency" or "cleaner burn"... it-is-what-it-is. The "bigger" box would be less troublesome I'm sure, but I don't see it ever being trouble-free for my application in the shop (or the house). In the right environment I'm sure they do a fine job... a tight, well insulated room/house, warmer climates, small(er) spaces, and whatnot. A different brand of new-fangled stove might work better (for me)... no way to know without trying one... so I guess I'll never know (unless someone gives me another one
). I'll just swap it out this summer with a barrel... I've got a rusted-out one out in the old broken-down shed, I can use the "parts" off it and barrels are free (shrug). In these old farm buildings converted to shops, man caves, and whatnot the "barrel" is pretty much the "standard" heater in this area... they just always seem to get the job done.oldspark,
Take a deep breath man... take a deep breath
Warmer weather is just a couple months away.
*
I've elected to use my built-in, mental "ignore" function this morning 
naturelover
Tree Freak
Well, we're making progress folks, we went from WS never having one again to "I'd take it if they give it to me"...
We'll have him sportin' around on radials before it's over with...
Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk
We'll have him sportin' around on radials before it's over with...
Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk
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LMAO ‼ Now that's funny naturelover, too damn funny‼
Actually Del_, we're in the middle of a heat wave also... 12° this morning (wind is at 30 MPH though).
Looks like we'll be just a bit on the chilly side come Monday, somewhere around -20° to -25° in the morning, a high maybe hitting -10°... that's supposed to last for a couple days before the cold front moves in. They ain't really sayin' how cold that front will be yet, might just be the common, everyday, -30° at night, -20° during the day... haf'ta wait and see I guess.
Actually Del_, we're in the middle of a heat wave also... 12° this morning (wind is at 30 MPH though).
Looks like we'll be just a bit on the chilly side come Monday, somewhere around -20° to -25° in the morning, a high maybe hitting -10°... that's supposed to last for a couple days before the cold front moves in. They ain't really sayin' how cold that front will be yet, might just be the common, everyday, -30° at night, -20° during the day... haf'ta wait and see I guess.
sunfish
Fish Head
Bryan, the thing I like best about the Jotul 118 black bear is it throws out more radiant heat and faster than any stove we've had. It really does work like the old smoke dragons, but burns much cleaner & more efficient. I was burning off the coals this morning and it almost got too hot in the house! -3 here this morning. Ya just can't beat the heat output of a cast iron stove with no firebrick or refractory! Ya can't stand very close when it's crankin!
Cast is good... always has been.
*
*
sunfish
Fish Head
That's what I'd do, but can't say it'll work for you...
Yup, except when I'm a bonehead and stop it down too hard overnight. But no matter, it's blazing away again in minutes.
Well, I ain't never used a Jotul... ain't even sure I've seen one in use.
But, just going on what I know from using the smoke dragons, unlined cast has to be better than what I have now for a stove in the shop... but how much better I flat can't say.
It would be nice to spend a bit of time around one first... huh??
*
But, just going on what I know from using the smoke dragons, unlined cast has to be better than what I have now for a stove in the shop... but how much better I flat can't say.
It would be nice to spend a bit of time around one first... huh??
*
