The "Not So Pro" discussion thread...of course Pros are welcome!

[northmanlogging]

Don't know but this may be more of an East coast question. Most all of the trees over 24" that I cut are oaks, followed by maples, and a few beeches and poplars. Only rarely do I cut other species of that size. Yesterday was one of those rarities. LO asked me to cut a 28" locust. Heretofore my experience with locust has been spindly weed trees 15" and under and splitting for fence posts as a teenager. This tree was more like an oak - it had a nice straight truck and a large bushy canopy. It was located on a small bank at the intersection of a county lane and a county road and was weighed over the lane. I treated it like I would an oak and tried to fall it against the weight into a field but with four rows of wedges maxed out and a rope not high enough in the tree, it required hinge thinning beyond my comfort zone to start the fall. You guessed it - the hinge broke almost immediately in the fall, the rope tension pulled the trunk forward which caused the stem to plunge straight into the ground about three feet from the stump whereupon the tree spun and fell almost 90* from the intended. Four hours later my cutting partner and I had the canopy out of the lane - not talking firewood here - lengths as big as my 4wd truck would pull. The downed telephone pole blocking the road only took about 5 minutes - thank GOD no was passing by at the time. Real YouTube stuff. Long intro to, the landowner has some large doggy walnuts to cut as well as some sycamores. Clearly, I was not experienced enough with the characteristics of locust. I have zero experience with large walnuts and very little with sycamores - other than parking my saw any advice on what I should look out for with these species?

Ron

Oh no...

Well, my only suggestion, if you plan on continuing these escapades.

Get your self a Big Shot, some throw line and a couple throw bags. Makes it effortless to put a line 90' up a tree.

Follow that with some good arborist rigging line, (I like the 9/16 samson stable braid) add at least one snatch block for redirection and you can move the world.

Worst case scenerio it will keep the trees out of any high value targets.

As for locust, the only one I was ever involved in, I managed to talk our way out of doing, as it had all sorts of height and bad lean, with no where to go. At the time we neither one of us had insurance or anything.

 

[rwoods]

Didn’t have time for pictures with only two of us to clean up the mess. Conventional face with a high back cut - thought it would vertically split and leave a flexible hinge. Nope, barely any flex, in fact none visible until I gutted it.

Unfamiliarity with the wood (lot harder and stiffer than I expected), too much weight, too low rope (probably 16’ due to vines), wrapping the rope from the road side instead of the open side and a rolling tug is my diagnosis of the failure. I could have stayed at the tree and stacked wedges but the hinge had gotten too thin for my liking - I thinned it several times after the wedges started pinging instead of moving. After each thinning I could drive them a little more. When the tree spun it put the pole in reach of the wide crown. Just slapped it lightly but unknown to us it was rotten at the base and ready to fall. Fortunately it was a short drop pole without a current connection.

The rest of the trees have no targets but I like things to fall at least close to where I intended. I don’t like surprises that a little knowledge can avoid.

Ron

 

[Skeans]

Didn’t have time for pictures with only two of us to clean up the mess. Conventional face with a high back cut - thought it would vertically split and leave a flexible hinge. Nope, barely any flex, in fact none visible until I gutted it.

Unfamiliarity with the wood (lot harder and stiffer than I expected), too much weight, too low rope (probably 16’ due to vines), wrapping the rope from the road side instead of the open side and a rolling tug is my diagnosis of the failure. I could have stayed at the tree and stacked wedges but the hinge had gotten too thin for my liking - I thinned it several times after the wedges started pinging instead of moving. After each thinning I could drive them a little more. When the tree spun it put the pole in reach of the wide crown. Just slapped it lightly but unknown to us it was rotten at the base and ready to fall. Fortunately it was a short drop pole without a current connection.

The rest of the trees have no targets but I like things to fall at least close to where I intended. I don’t like surprises that a little knowledge can avoid.

Ron

If I'm unfamiliar with the wood I'll normally shy from something like that unless I have to, equipment to pull the tree in that direction. If I had to do that with a cat (I know some will same a skidder will work) to put winch tension on the tree before cutting.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[rwoods]

Talking from N.W. Locust, (Eastern Washington), black locust and honey locust, look more like a misshapen sick old maple tree. I'm not the fall guy, unless it hits a house or power line, but the big guy always trims most of the limbs and only when he's satisfied it will drop where it should does he do his thing.. And even then, it's a crap shoot.. Says they don't fall same way every time.. Japanese elm same way.. Damn things don't like growing straight up..hope this helps, but most is just common sense, patience, and experience.. Cheers, K

Good locust description. All that I have previously encountered of any size were misshaped spindly weeds. None required directional falling. This is the first large one I have ever seen that came close to having symmetry. Unlikely that I will see another like it.

Your comments about how they fall reminds me of an experience I had over 35 years ago that most don’t believe. I cut a 10” or so black locust on the side of a hill back when I thought you were supposed to keep sawing until the tree fell. I sawed all the way through it without a pinch and it just sat down on the stump. Took me a few seconds to gather my thoughts, then I pushed it over by hand.

Oh no...

Well, my only suggestion, if you plan on continuing these escapades.
... .

Didn’t mean for it to be an escapade, just a routine fall. Not what happened though. Trying to avoid the same with these other species.

If I'm unfamiliar with the wood I'll normally shy from something like that unless I have to, equipment to pull the tree in that direction. ... .

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Just proves you are more savvy than me , I am just now figuring out that I need to know more about wood characteristics which is why I am now asking about walnuts and sycamores.

————————————

Back to the locust and my cut, after reflection today, I believe the high backcut was likely a major culprit in the high effort needed. Probably never have another similar one to cut, but if I did I think I would do what Hotsaws calls an original Humboldt.

Thanks guys for the replies. Now go find some walnut and sycamore to cut and let me know how they behave.

Ron

 

[Skeans]

Good locust description. All that I have previously encountered of any size were misshaped spindly weeds. None required directional falling. This is the first large one I have ever seen that came close to having symmetry. Unlikely that I will see another like it.

Your comments about how they fall reminds me of an experience I had over 35 years ago that most don’t believe. I cut a 10” or so black locust on the side of a hill back when I thought you were supposed to keep sawing until the tree fell. I sawed all the way through it without a pinch and it just sat down on the stump. Took me a few seconds to gather my thoughts, then I pushed it over by hand.




Didn’t mean for it to be an escapade, just a routine fall. Not what happened though. Trying to avoid the same with these other species.



Just proves you are more savvy than me , I am just now figuring out that I need to know more about wood characteristics which is why I am now asking about walnuts and sycamores.

————————————

Back to the locust and my cut, after reflection today, I believe the high backcut was likely a major culprit in the high effort needed. Probably never have another similar one to cut, but if I did I think I would do what Hotsaws calls an original Humboldt.

Thanks guys for the replies. Now go find some walnut and sycamore to cut and let me know how they behave.

Ron

Ron we are all learning all the time if I wasn't learning I'd sure hope I'd be dead or looking for another profession. To give you an idea I'm going to be demoing a harvester a H14 Rottne I have to reteach my brain everything from where my feet have to be to where my fingers are on buttons. Then next week I'll be trying a 1270G my hands will to lay flat out, after that I maybe trying a ponsse where my hands are on a ball setup.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Gologit]

Good locust description. All that I have previously encountered of any size were misshaped spindly weeds. None required directional falling. This is the first large one I have ever seen that came close to having symmetry. Unlikely that I will see another like it.

Your comments about how they fall reminds me of an experience I had over 35 years ago that most don’t believe. I cut a 10” or so black locust on the side of a hill back when I thought you were supposed to keep sawing until the tree fell. I sawed all the way through it without a pinch and it just sat down on the stump. Took me a few seconds to gather my thoughts, then I pushed it over by hand.




Didn’t mean for it to be an escapade, just a routine fall. Not what happened though. Trying to avoid the same with these other species.



Just proves you are more savvy than me , I am just now figuring out that I need to know more about wood characteristics which is why I am now asking about walnuts and sycamores.

————————————

Back to the locust and my cut, after reflection today, I believe the high backcut was likely a major culprit in the high effort needed. Probably never have another similar one to cut, but if I did I think I would do what Hotsaws calls an original Humboldt.

Thanks guys for the replies. Now go find some walnut and sycamore to cut and let me know how they behave.

Ron

Sometimes you can plan to your best ability and use every trick you can think of and that damn tree just thumbs it's nose at you and does what it wants to do. That's falling.

If it happens a lot you might rethink your technique but once in awhile a tree will just get away from you.

I haven't fallen all that much hardwood, mostly oak and madrone cutting out for roads, but those buggers had me running more than once.

You learned a little and you didn't get hurt. You're ahead of the game.

Kinda humbling though, isn't it?

 

[northmanlogging]

Didn’t mean for it to be an escapade, just a routine fall. Not what happened though. Trying to avoid the same with these other species.

Ron

No one ever wants them to be an escapade, unless your sport falling, then ya it should be an escapade.

But remember there is no such thing as a routine fall, some go easy, some you overthink, some you under think and get lucky, some go hard.

Its the ones you under think that go bad that cause real problems.

Study your losses, live and learn etc.

As for the other species trees, pick an easy one, cut it slow and watch it carefully, best way to learn how a tree reacts is to be there as the cause of its reaction. You've done this enough to know what you're looking for.

 

[rwoods]

Sure is humbling. I try to be safe. Eyeball the situation and think through my approach on every tree regardless of size before cutting - sometimes just seconds and other times several minutes up to much thought over days with some hazard trees. This was a several minute tree with the LO in tow. Knocking the telephone pole down is what really bugs me. Could have killed someone driving by. I always take a full circle view. I even explained to the LO that I wouldn’t cut the tree if it were remotely possible to hit the power lines as not only is that too dangerous our power company will fall trees in range for free. He pointed out that the power lines were across the road and clearly out of range. Telephone company isn’t so generous and I misjudged the distance to their ancient drop pole. It being almost 90* to the intended fall I didn’t even consider it a hazard. Never occurred to me to check the pole for soundness. Could have killed anyone who just bumped into it. My partner and I found some solace in the fact we accidentally eliminated it as a hidden hazard.

Ron

 

[Skeans]

Sure is humbling. I try to be safe. Eyeball the situation and think through my approach on every tree regardless of size before cutting - sometimes just seconds and other times several minutes up to much thought over days with some hazard trees. This was a several minute tree with the LO in tow. Knocking the telephone pole down is what really bugs me. Could have killed someone driving by. I always take a full circle view. I even explained to the LO that I wouldn’t cut the tree if it were remotely possible to hit the power lines as not only is that too dangerous our power company will fall trees in range for free. He pointed out that the power lines were across the road and clearly out of range. Telephone company isn’t so generous and I misjudged the distance to their ancient drop pole. It being almost 90* to the intended fall I didn’t even consider it a hazard. Never occurred to me to check the pole for soundness. Could have killed anyone who just bumped into it. My partner and I found some solace in the fact we accidentally eliminated it as a hidden hazard.

Ron

Also remember this if you get a bill for that line.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[rwoods]

Plan to let them know in the morning that their 50 year old post is in the ditch. I doubt they will own up to ownership. Company has changed at least twice since installation. It served an abandoned residence. Ron

 

[Skeans]

Plan to let them know in the morning that their 50 year old post is in the ditch. I doubt they will own up to ownership. Company has changed at least twice since installation. It served an abandoned residence. Ron

I don't think I'd let them know, I'd let think the wind or snow took it down if it's not in service. (Cough) (cough) no service there.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Beetlejuice]

I didn't look this up, but was informed that the black locust was imported from Europe in the 1800's to be used as fence posts because of their ability to ward off insects, and resistance to rot.but, like every investment I make, steel posts became cheap and easy obtained for the pioneers to fence off the land. So locust trees that were once grown in plots proliferated, and became a great big thorny weed.several of the old tree plantations in central and northern Idaho, so I'm told.. If anyone wishes to elaborate on this subject, I am all ears.. No hard feelings if I'm wrong, or maybe even kinda right.. I love to learn.. Cheers. K

 

[bitzer]

Ron-sounds like you misjudged the weight of the canopy. You can only thin out your hinge so far on bigger trees with any good results. Sounds like you could have used a jack. If you did on a 25" tree you'd set the hinge farther ahead so as not to put so much pressure on it. The locust I've cut had long fibers and swung to beat the band. Every tree within a species can be different tho due to growing conditions, age, etc.

Walnut will chair easily similar to an ash or white oak, but they will also swing all day too. We don't have sycamore up here.

We used locust for our warships in 1812. They claimed the cannonballs bounced right off.

 

[edwardo]

Ron we are all learning all the time if I wasn't learning I'd sure hope I'd be dead or looking for another profession. To give you an idea I'm going to be demoing a harvester a H14 Rottne I have to reteach my brain everything from where my feet have to be to where my fingers are on buttons. Then next week I'll be trying a 1270G my hands will to lay flat out, after that I maybe trying a ponsse where my hands are on a ball setup.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

locust can be really dangerous. It stands dead for eons & its easy to brush one & get **** flying. tops break out & there's nothing there but a big solid stick. A cutting partner was killed 4 or 5 years ago from a locust top that he busted out while wedging a tree.. I'd have gone the same route if I was 6 inches further back behind a tree that I was cutting that committed real slow, about the time I realized something was not right, I got a brisk ride into the dirt. There in the dirt I laid for several moments motionless after waking up. I was worried that maybe nothing would happen when I attempted to wiggle my foot or hand. That was the very first wakeup call back when I was green.

 

[rwoods]

Thanks edwardo. Not 400’ feet from my house I have two large locust as you described. I haven’t touched them because of the tops and have been waiting 15 years now for nature to take them down. Saturday ‘s tree was unlike any locust I have ever seen - looked like a tree is “supposed” to look. I didn’t mention in the earlier posts another surprise, but enough of the top was dead that really bad things could have happen. My partner and discussed where did all that dead wood come from as where were cleaning up. With the leaves off we missed it. I don’t knowingly beat on trees with dead over my head. Think I will leave any locust in the future.

Thanks for the warning. Sorry about your partner. Wasn’t that tragedy over in NC?

Ron

PS Saturday’s tree - dead stuff was wrist size but big enough to take seriously.

 

[northmanlogging]

Thanks edwardo. Not 400’ feet from my house I have two large locust as you described. I haven’t touched them because of the tops and have been waiting 15 years now for nature to take them down. Saturday ‘s tree was unlike any locust I have ever seen - looked like a tree is “supposed” to look. I didn’t mention in the earlier posts another surprise, but enough of the top was dead that really bad things could have happen. My partner and discussed where did all that dead wood come from as where were cleaning up. With the leaves off we missed it. I don’t knowingly beat on trees with dead over my head. Think I will leave any locust in the future.

Thanks for the warning. Sorry about your partner. Wasn’t that tragedy over in NC?

Ron

Now don't get scared on us.

A healthy respect is in order, and a well earned fear.

You'll see another, size it up as you would any other, its just a tree, make an informed decision and if you still want to pass, then pass.

 

[rwoods]

Not to worry, I just don’t want to be too casual and get hurt or hurt someone. Those spindly locust stems are hard as a rock. A small piece would be like dropping a baseball bat. Small dead limbs are usually more typical and bust up upon impact.

Ron

 

[edwardo]

Thanks edwardo. Not 400’ feet from my house I have two large locust as you described. I haven’t touched them because of the tops and have been waiting 15 years now for nature to take them down. Saturday ‘s tree was unlike any locust I have ever seen - looked like a tree is “supposed” to look. I didn’t mention in the earlier posts another surprise, but enough of the top was dead that really bad things could have happen. My partner and discussed where did all that dead wood come from as where were cleaning up. With the leaves off we missed it. I don’t knowingly beat on trees with dead over my head. Think I will leave any locust in the future.

Thanks for the warning. Sorry about your partner. Wasn’t that tragedy over in NC?

Ron

PS Saturday’s tree - dead stuff was wrist size but big enough to take seriously.

if it doesn't have to go than leaving it is probably wise. it will just become better & better firewood of you're into that.
Yeah it was out in western NC. I have some strong feelings about that whole operation but the past is the past.
Don't ever go to work for a logger who is also a progressive liberal......

 

[northmanlogging]

if it doesn't have to go than leaving it is probably wise. it will just become better & better firewood of you're into that.
Yeah it was out in western NC. I have some strong feelings about that whole operation but the past is the past.
Don't ever go to work for a logger who is also a progressive liberal......

Why? You no wan't health insurance, paid time off, a retirement plan, L+I insurance and a fair wage?

Or would you rather work under the table for a few dollars over minimum wage, cause that's what a "man" does?

 

[Beetlejuice]

May I? Been on both sides of the aisle, but must admit not in the logging industry, but in construction 40+ years. As an employer hated all the paperwork and new rules every 8 years, or 4 depending on the current whitehouse administration.. And the simple fact of being told that you have to carry all these programs or else..an employer's view (not all) is employees should be able to take care of themselves... I.E. put $$s aside for insurance, retirement, etc...and having worked for many employers, the general view is that the big guy at the top of the food chain has the money to pay for the benefits, because after all, it's us guys in the middle taking the chances and getting the work done.. No easy solution.. Just saying.. Thanks for letting me chime in.. Cheers. K