The "Not So Pro" discussion thread...of course Pros are welcome!
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Here are my last three of the day. The first picture shows how I cut that ill acting locust last week. You can see the high back cut with the hinge breaking down low; the back side was gone out of this tree. The middle two pictures show a more conventional cut. The last two pictures are of my last tree of the day. I was having real trouble seeing with all the dead and dust today. I dusted this one off to see that my angle cut was coming in too high so I bored a back stop to simply remove a block and not go too deep. I thought the hinge would peel too but it didn't - maybe that top shelf created by my over-cutting cause it to break instead of splitting first. I am trying to ease some of these trees to the ground - at least initially to give me more time to get out of Dodge and to accelerate the top slowly to lessen the chance of it breaking off. That is why I use a high back cut on these dead trees (the locust last week was a failed attempt to create a flexible hinge to guide the tree almost to the ground). Is there a better way, especially when you shouldn't be beating a wedge?
Ron
Ron
Pretty close, but they do seem to have a small face. Ron
On the loggers stuff, looks like they are nipping the heart out to prevent fiber pull. And using short bars to do it. I've heard of folks using a 3pt to prevent this, especially on walnut etc.
On yer stuff, if you planning on a block face, which is what it looks like to me, you have to be careful about gouges in the hold wood, the idea is a nice smooth transition, any gouge will likely be the first spot to fail. Same goes for sizwheels. Almost better to bore the vertical portion, then match up the two cuts very carefully.
Mileage may vary, but I've found that if you stick with it long enough, and watch the top (or bobber wedge) once the tree starts to move even a little bit, just let it do its thing, watching for stalls of course and just giving it a little tickle to keep it going. Once it passes a certain point gravity is simply too much and will continue to drag it down. The trick is knowing when there is nothing you can do and its time to vacate the premises.
I used to love sticking with em and having that big ole BOOM when they hit, just torching em right off the stump, lately I've found there is a certain grace when the hold wood and face depth/angle, are perfect and a tree appears to float to the ground, with just a little thud at the end. Took me a long time to get that combination figured out....
But the big key was to watch for movement, and let that movement be your guide.
On yer stuff, if you planning on a block face, which is what it looks like to me, you have to be careful about gouges in the hold wood, the idea is a nice smooth transition, any gouge will likely be the first spot to fail. Same goes for sizwheels. Almost better to bore the vertical portion, then match up the two cuts very carefully.
Mileage may vary, but I've found that if you stick with it long enough, and watch the top (or bobber wedge) once the tree starts to move even a little bit, just let it do its thing, watching for stalls of course and just giving it a little tickle to keep it going. Once it passes a certain point gravity is simply too much and will continue to drag it down. The trick is knowing when there is nothing you can do and its time to vacate the premises.
I used to love sticking with em and having that big ole BOOM when they hit, just torching em right off the stump, lately I've found there is a certain grace when the hold wood and face depth/angle, are perfect and a tree appears to float to the ground, with just a little thud at the end. Took me a long time to get that combination figured out....
But the big key was to watch for movement, and let that movement be your guide.
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
Ron looks like the guy cut the same wood at least twice from both sides. Sloppy and inefficient. Nothing special there. Short bar action at it's finest.
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
Ron with your last stump it looks like you're putting in a block face which is a good idea in these rotten trees. It exposes as much fiber as possible for maximum steerage. Use a snipe on the stump as well. Like northy said you can not bypass your cuts at all when you put in a block. It will break before it canceling the effect which you can see very clearly in the picture. If you don't wish to take a lot of time putting in a block put in a wide face and a snipe on the opposite. Like a Humboldt and snipe on the butt or conventional and snipe on the stump. The key is to keep the tree moving until it hits the ground. Go deep on your faces to to minimize wedging and use gravity. As long as you have you lean judged correctly that is. 50% or better will save you a lot of trouble. The Snipes will keep the tree from blowing up/splitting because when/if they stall they fall into the snipe and keep moving.
If you lower your backcut to near level with the front you'll find they will go over easier, once they start to tip you can fully retreat, because of the reduced stump step there is has an increased risk of the log coming back over the stump , as said go with the lean & avoid wedging dead trees.
Couldn’t figure the consistent over-cut. From the replies I assume just consistently wrong. You guys would have hated this site. Lots of waste due to fallen and dead I trees that should have been logged years earlier and seemingly every once decent young tree now scarred into worthlessness due to the logging.
Thanks for the pointers. I figured my own over-cut on the “block” face is what caused the hinge to break at the top, but I wasn’t sure. The block was made to backstop cuts that weren’t going to meet where I wanted. I use block cuts fairly regularly when cutting small green tires in situations where there is no way to avoid landing on something that you don’t really want to hurt.
As to busting the stem, I am just cutting firewood so I don’t care how hard it lands or if it busts on impact so long as it isn’t throwing stuff down on me or at me. As I am sure you guys have seen happen, I don’t want a stem to leave the top behind to fall on me so I am trying for a hinge that will soft start a fall. I have seen a vertical bore made behind a hinge, but I am not the best shot in the world nor the best judge of how thick a hinge should be. And with .404 full skip, boring dead hardwood can be a rough ride for both me and the saw.
Ron
Thanks for the pointers. I figured my own over-cut on the “block” face is what caused the hinge to break at the top, but I wasn’t sure. The block was made to backstop cuts that weren’t going to meet where I wanted. I use block cuts fairly regularly when cutting small green tires in situations where there is no way to avoid landing on something that you don’t really want to hurt.
As to busting the stem, I am just cutting firewood so I don’t care how hard it lands or if it busts on impact so long as it isn’t throwing stuff down on me or at me. As I am sure you guys have seen happen, I don’t want a stem to leave the top behind to fall on me so I am trying for a hinge that will soft start a fall. I have seen a vertical bore made behind a hinge, but I am not the best shot in the world nor the best judge of how thick a hinge should be. And with .404 full skip, boring dead hardwood can be a rough ride for both me and the saw.
Ron
Bewildered, I don’t understand the reduced step part. Explain, please. I thought the higher the step the less likely the stem would come back. If I an increasing the risk I need to stop as that is one of my objectives with the high back cut. With my poor skills, I thought the biggest risk with a high back cut and a conventional face is over cutting and having only an illusion of a hinge.
Ron
hseII
Addicted to ArboristSite
More-so On the Illusion with a Dead one because you don’t know the condition of the Heart Wood.
He’s on some kind of mind altering drugs.
Are these trees solid enough to put a rope on them to help?
I dropped a larger Sourwood tree in a back yard earlier that I thought was still in fair shape: it had fungi growing at the flares, but it sounded well with an axe.
I’m glad I put that line in it because the Stump was already compromised before I ever touched the tree.
Another “Cheap” Lesson Learned.
As far as the cuts, if it’s leaning the way you want it to go, a Humbolt, snipe, a bore cut leaving a heavier hinge, & then a trigger would be my choice as I see you brought enough bar.
Don’t “BS” it: cut the trigger from the outside & a 3-4” below the back cut, not on the suddenly rapidly moving tree.
I don’t care for cutting healthy trees with a Too-shorts, but I Darn Sure don’t care for short Bars on a dead or rotten tree, aka Sketchy tree.
Keep Lookin Up, with a Path Beat Out & Your Skid Lid On.
The greater the difference between the backcut & the scarf, the more you have to reduce the thickness of the hinge. Just imagine you put the backcut 1 ft above the scarf, you could vertually overcut the back cut if the tree didn't have much of a lean & it wouldn't fall because it has to split the hinge vertically as well as shear it horizontally.
And yes with the cuts on the same level there is an increased risk of the tree coming backwards off the stump if there is a hang up or a similar problem.
Thanski
Last week’s locust took me to school on that point. Intellectually I knew that but the locust proved it. Not a real big factor on some of our oaks when green. Of course, I am talking a couple of inches not a foot.
I read your original post to say just the opposite which is why I asked.
Thanks, Ron
Only have one left to cut which I somehow missed. I cut almost zero large dead trees; usually just plate size. See quite a few dying trees due to storm damage.
As to a rope, all of these had easily discenable leans and only two or three stub branches - all in the very top - with little on the ground to avoid, so I just picked the safest place for me to stand in case a stub let go and cut with the lean as much as I could. If I were younger, I would learn how to put a rope high on a stem like the pine you posted. Climbing is not in my future and except for these standing deads, I don’t encounter trees of that height without lower limbs.
As to the bar, on the first and biggest I was kicking myself for not bringing a longer bar. Also the one that fell a little off was due in part to jockeying with a short bar.
Thanks, Ron
hseII
Addicted to ArboristSite
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Two questions:
Unless I had the mechanical means to simply pull the tree over why would I induce forces on a top that I am already afraid may bust off just with the acceleration induced by the falling stem?
Can you make a tie like you showed in your earlier picture without climbing?
Ron
Unless I had the mechanical means to simply pull the tree over why would I induce forces on a top that I am already afraid may bust off just with the acceleration induced by the falling stem?
Can you make a tie like you showed in your earlier picture without climbing?
Ron
depending on the condition of tree, a rope up high puts an insane amount of leverage onto the tree, with just a little force.
I wouldn't recommend pulling on anything that wasn't solid though, as far as junky tops go, a good jerk of the line while no one is under em tends to knock anything sketchy out for you.
Instead of the Afta, I highly recommend the Big Shot though, just a really big sling shot, but same principle as the afta
also a Bowline with a shackle or steel caribiner is all I use to tie the rope up a tree. Some folks just use a running bowline, but I don't like the friction it puts on the rope, a hard pull can cut the line if your not careful.
Throw line and weight gets it up and over a good tall limb,
Drag bull line up and over (i suggest gloves) then work it around to the rope is around tree, tie bowline, put shackle through bowline loop, and around free end of rope, making sure the bolt is on the loop side, drag it up until it cinches tight. Sometimes takes some fiddling with to get it positioned in a good spot, but yer feet will never leave the ground.
I really should make a really long video about this....
Throw line and weight gets it up and over a good tall limb,
Drag bull line up and over (i suggest gloves) then work it around to the rope is around tree, tie bowline, put shackle through bowline loop, and around free end of rope, making sure the bolt is on the loop side, drag it up until it cinches tight. Sometimes takes some fiddling with to get it positioned in a good spot, but yer feet will never leave the ground.
I really should make a really long video about this....
I use a shackle. I also use a little shackle as the weight for my homemade throw line - have to be real careful when pulling a stuck line free as you could lose some teeth or something worse. The weight of the little shackle is part of our height limitation. Never saw my dad use a rope to fall but did to cut big limbs. He used an old rod & reel for his homemade throw line. Short steel rod and a heavy lead sinker - a two inch or so donut looking thing.
Ron
Ron
Untie the weight if you need to rethrow... few seconds rehooking it save so much time dicking with hung up weights.
Slippery clove hitch on the throw bags, or just unscrew a shackle
Got to have some kind of weight. Ron
