took a chainsaw to the face

[ozarktreeman]

WOW!
If thay dont make you think twice about your career choices.
I have lost half my left index finger,cracked my right elbow,both rotater cuffs bad.normal wear and tear and pain that goes with the terratory.
Could probaly deal with arm or leg loss; god forbid that should happen; And still get back at it in some form or another.

But a saw to the face.I think that would be the end for me.

props man wish you all the best.know it,s been a while now. Hope you had good recovery and recouped some sort of pay for hosp bills.

 

[Normsworld]

Are owners covered by WC ?

I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ? I work alone ( doing home improvements ). Also Monkeyman , be careful what you post on the web . It can come back to bite you . A guy got rear ended on a motorcycle and his attorneys were real pissed when he posted on motorcycle site . Godspeed in your recovery .

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ?

This is true. Workman's Comp is for workers. The insurance that offers YOU compensation in the case of a major injury is called disability insurance.

If your business is incorporated, you are an employee of the corporation and your corporation can take out workman's comp insurance for it's sole worker (you). However, you, as the sole person working for the corporation (ie President) you are free to choose whether or not you wish to have workman's comp on yourself. You may choose WC or disability, it is up to you as you are the sole decision maker regarding yourself.

As a corporation, you can sign up for a corporate health plan, even though the only person in the corporation is you. Your corporation should also have liability insurance, along with that health insurance. The disability insurance is up to you whether or not you want to pay for that. Add to that the insurance on you vehicle / equipment and you have a minimum of three policies to run your tree service and legitimately have yourself covered in the case of an unfortunate event.

If you choose to run your own business without adequate insurances, your overhead costs are lower, but your assumed risk is higher.

Regarding suing people, like the homeowner, you will have to in the future look back on this and ask did they have any legitimate part in your accident, or are you suing them just because the law allows it? Put yourself in their shoes before taking the huge step of filing suit. If you lose the case, you pay all attorney costs and dig your hole deeper.

 

[Tree Machine]

I'm not advising one way or the other, just that all actions have potential consequences that may not work out the way you intend.

You've unquestionably had endless time to think deeply on this. Consider that some of the posters here have legitimate information to consider, and others have emotionally charged opinion. Sort out which is which before choosing an action.


In looking at both your side and the general contractor's side, with an unbiassed view, I see he offered you employment for many years, you learned the business on his dime. That's an employee/employer relationship.

You decided to go out on your own, that is, to compete with him in his own market. He, in turn, offers you jobs to keep you busy until you can fully sustain yourself on your own.

Call him scumbag, but his biggest mistake was that he didn't tell you farewell, good luck, you are on your own. Instead he kicks you down work. Regardless of what he was paying you, when you agreed to do the job, you as a subcontractor negotiate that term and either do the job, or not do the job. You make the choice to do the job, or walk away from it, there is no "If I was truly a sub he woulda been paying me more." A business owner is in business to make a profit, not see that his new competition is making a profit.

I'm not meaning to be harsh. I have truly been on both sides of this fence. When you go independent, this places you in a position of new responsibility, new choices and new decisions. You choose who you work for, you choose your gear, you choose your insurances and on and on and on. In becoming independent and taking on these responsibilities, you take on both the good and the bad. I work both as a business owner and as a subcontractor to other tree companies. Either way, I assume the responsibility as stated on page one of the ANSI Z133 manual for the treecare industry, which, if you're going to sue anyone, this will be referenced as an industry standard.

 

[Tree Machine]

Again, I am greatly sorry about your accident. I can empathize in that I had an on-site accident that nearly took my life, and left me out of work for 8 months.

My best advice is to not carry hate or hostility, let it go, learn and move on. You have a long life and career ahead of you and spitefulness can be the enemy within.

As far as going after another person's assets and livelihood, that one is individually yours, I can in no way advise, only to say that you must live with the choices you make.

I truly wish you the best in your recovery.

Much love.

 

[046]

WOW... what an old scary thread!!!

 

[Normsworld]

Thanks Tree Machine for clearing up the Workers Comp Info . I do have the liability , health , commercial truck and a big umbrella policy , but no disability ins . Sure could a used it last Dec . 23 .Using a Tablesaw the laminate flooring kicked back and rode the blade out which caused me to knock off 2 fingers ! Over a week in the hospital but none of the fingers lived . A year ago today I was still in the hospital . Had to go to finish the job the day after getting out the hospital . If you ain't got no disability ins. your just outa work and tons of unexpected bills . Now I'm working but not at the capacity where I can easily afford the Comp.! 23 years of selfemployed bliss then one nite your number comes up . If you work with your hands please insure them and if you got employees you got NO CHOICE !! Peace , love and lot's of prosperity in "09" !

 

[November Wolf]

Very sad story. Hope it ended out well for you monkeyman.

 

[DAVID451]

I have done alot of pretty dangerous trees and walked away thinking "thank God I made it". I had a tree to top back in January of this year, it was only about 40ft. I figured that it wasn't going to be anything to "hairy". I can't remember too much of that day.., but what I do remember was the saw kicking back and then a terrible pain in my face. I remember talking myself down. As soon as I hit the ground I was out. I woke up 2 days later in ICU. I was put in an induced coma because of the pain. The surgeon lost count at 300 stitches. I have a steel plate in my left side of my face. I cut all my teeth so that now the roots are exposed.
The worst thing is that the owner of the company that I was working for said "Joe., who?" He was paying me under the table. I have been working for this guy on and off for about 10 years. But when I had the accident he said that I was an independent contractor. At this time I had been with him about 8 months. The accident happened on January 9th and at the end of January I receives a 1099 from the company I was working for.
I was in the hospital for 10 days and my former employer never once called or showed up to see me. Don't get me wrong he was there the day it happened. (This is what I was told). He sat out in the waiting room with my family. He told my fiance that he was going to pay for our wedding, that he would bring me back as a foreman and that he would help us with the mortgage payments for a while. But we are still not married, I had to find a new full time job and we are behind in the mortgage payments because I was out of work for 6 months.
He waited at the hospital till OSHA came, when they were done questioning him and his other employees he left to go play bingo at the casino.
I obtained an attorney and filed a claim with workers comp. I got denied. Because I own my own company and I was using my own chainsaw the day of the accident. The judge also said that because my boss was not there to supervise me and to see the finished work that meant that I was not an employee.
Well first of all, I just started my own company and there was no way for me to stop working full time. I did my thing on the weekends. Secondly how many of you men use your own chainsaws working for someone else.? Lastly does the owner of a tree company always come to the job site and sit there till the job is done?
I am appealing the decision. But until then I have to deal with the pain from my teeth because I don't have the money to pay to have them fixed. I am in the Dr's. office about once a month because my mouth is infected and because of the pain.
I am sorry for rambling on. I just needed to vent. Is there anyone else who has dealt a situation like this? If so feel free to contact me. I would like to hear someone say that they had a happy ending in a similar situation.
Thanks for listening.
Donations would be greatly appreciated.
I have attached 2 photos. They are not for the weak at heart.

I am fairly new to this but disturbed by the extent of one-off accidents like this. Is there no equipment that protects the face and neck for when this happens. I imagine that my saw would munch right through my mesh visor. I expect and injury of this nature would finish most people.

 

[GNAR13]

Is there no equipment that protects the face and neck for when this happens.

Two hands on the saw with a firm grip

 

[DAVID451]

Two hands on the saw with a firm grip

I dont know where this guy went wrong or if he was just unlucky, been cutting for only 4 years but never had a kickback "yet " that frightned me.

Are you saying that you should be able to hold most kickbacks, I have a 20inch bar on a 038av and I doubt I could hold it, but I try to keep my face away and work safely, but the tip has caught up on a couple of occasions. It looks as though the chain was still running when it hit his face so something went wrong.

I cut on my own as well so I am more careful than most, I hope.

 

[GNAR13]

all i was saying was that two hands on the saw w/ a firm grip is the best practice. a kickback happens way to fast and with too much force to stop it, but with two hands at least your front hand/arm can help determine the arc/path of the saw (but keep your face out the way anyway). also, that front hand is what hits the chain brake. this statement was mostly about people using top-handle saws one-handed.

 

[DAVID451]

all i was saying was that two hands on the saw w/ a firm grip is the best practice. a kickback happens way to fast and with too much force to stop it, but with two hands at least your front hand/arm can help determine the arc/path of the saw (but keep your face out the way anyway). also, that front hand is what hits the chain brake. this statement was mostly about people using top-handle saws one-handed.

Totally agree

 

[arbor pro]

I dont know where this guy went wrong or if he was just unlucky, been cutting for only 4 years but never had a kickback "yet " that frightned me.

Are you saying that you should be able to hold most kickbacks, I have a 20inch bar on a 038av and I doubt I could hold it, but I try to keep my face away and work safely, but the tip has caught up on a couple of occasions. It looks as though the chain was still running when it hit his face so something went wrong.

I cut on my own as well so I am more careful than most, I hope.

Not to kick the guy when he's down but, there were at least four things he did wrong from my take on the situation:

1) rakers filed down too far making the chain prone to kickback
2) cutting at face level in direct line with the kickback of the bar - the first rule of chainsaw positioning is to hold the saw where a kick back would rotate the bar and chain away from the body rather than into it.
3) cutting one-handed - I'm guilty of this like everyone else but, I would never cut one-handed at face-level. If I have to cut one-handed, it is definitely in a position where kickback won't rotate the bar and chain back into my body.
4) cutting without a helmet and face shield - a mesh visor might not stop a chain but, it would likely provide better protection than nothing at all and would likely have decreased the extent of injury in this case.

It makes me wonder if the helmet manufacturers have tested the ability of the mesh face screens to stop a rotating chain? Anybody know if it would have made a difference in this case?

 

[jmcguiretree]

The point of the original post was to tell everyone that we work in a dangerous field. Lets learn from went wrong and try to take something good from someone's mistakes.The photos should be printed and hung up in every truck we work from as a daily reminder as to what can .The loser that he was working for should have done more than turn his back on him, but I guess that is part of what makes him one. With that said it still does not take away all the other facts to this accident.Lets ALL learn from this,share this with people you work with and show them the photos.

 

[stackwood]

Yep

Sorry you got injured & hope you make out on appeal ! According to IRS the only way a worker can be considered a SUB-CONTRACTOR : If your employer DOCUMENTS that you carry your own LIABILITY INSURANCE & WORKERS COMPENSATION ! Hire a good attorney , on contingency fee , if possible & see where it leads ! Once again GOOD LUCK !

Irs has 10 points that will determine if your an employee or contractor.

Yyou need to meet 3 to be considered a employee opposed to a contractor , Go to the dept of labor and file a claim , they will assign a case worker who will pick your employer apart . #1 did your boss wright checks to you or your company? or did he pay you cash ? Did your boss have a schedual that you worked by. , did youu have a contract with him? If you had your own insurance was he named an additional insured? Did he ever pprovide you with tools other then your chain saw? If ther is no signed contract you imo have a good chance with the dept of labor.

 

[arbor pro]

The only thing that stinks about this whole situation is that it was likely a mutual agreement between the 'employer' and 'employee' that the work arrangement be an 'off the books' cash deal and, along with that, both parties likely knew that there was no work comp insurance in place in case of an injury.

I don't feel that the 'employer' in this situation should have been paying this guy under the table. He should have had this fellow on the payroll and covered under his insurance. That said, if the 'employee' knew that he wasn't insured for an injury, he could have made the choice to not work for this guy. If he knowingly agreed to work without insurance, IMO, he does not have the moral right to sue. Yes, perhaps our current 'sue-happy' legal system will allow him to sue for damages but, as a matter of principle, if the 'employee' agrees to work for cash so he can put more bling in his pocket at the end of the day, he is accepting the risk that goes along with it.

Ever heard of the saying, 'you can't have your cake and eat it too'...? Well, you can't work for someone off the books and expect to get all the rights and priviledges of a regular employee. The employee can't just play dumb and say, "Well, I didn't know..." Neither can the employer.

It sure sounds to me like there are a bunch of sue happy folks on this site. I chalk this up to a lesson learned that both students will likely never forget. If you're not a legitimate sub-contractor, you need to be on the books and insured. Case closed.

 

[Tree Machine]

ArborPro, you put that in very realistic terms. Here we have a mutual agreement where both sides know the risks, and if all goes according to plan, no big deal. A former employer is helping out a 'trained apprentice' (so to speak) by kicking him down some jobs until he can run on his own. But then the truly awful happens.

Now the person who has employed you, invested in you, and is now supporting you to become his own competition is being faced with a life-changing situation, caused by someone else's mistake. This is more than having the cake and eating it too. This is biting the hand that's fed you.

I'm trying to see both sides. I have a deep compassion for those in our industry who've suffered injury. But, if you've independently caused the injury to yourself, you really need to look at the moral high road. The injury was not caused to the injured by someone else. There is no 'victim' here, just someone who caused injury to their own self.

We all who chose to be self-employed will eventually injure ourselves. If we get hurt real bad and chose not to have ourselves insured, then that was the risk we chose to run with and we are personally responsible for those choices and actions. We're adults. As hard as it might be to get through this difficult time, you will get through it. You make a mess, you clean it up. If the injured really needs help, help is out there for the asking, but suing someone for something that was 100% your fault, that is NOT the moral high road and you'll have to live the rest of your life knowing you took the position of 'entitlement' to someone else's life. This is a very serious decision with long-term implications.

I'm honestly hoping to be helpful here with a true-to-life viewpoint, not come to bat for one side or the other or point fingers.

 

[Philbert]

I'm self employed and was told by my insurance guy that W C only covers my employees but not me . Is this true ?

WC is different in every state. Generally, you CAN include yourself (as the owner, manager, etc.) IF you include yourself in the policy. That means you list yourself as an employee, and pay the premium for all of your hours worked.

To the IRS, I am the 'sole employee of a corporation that I happen to own all the stock in'. I carry a WC policy on myself, that also protects me driving back and forth to jobs from my primary place of business - my home office. I think that it is a good value.

Up until a few years ago, I was required to pay unemployment insurance on myself as well, but they finally allowed me to elect out of that.

Best to talk to someone in your state.

Philbert

 

[arbor pro]

ArborPro, you put that in very realistic terms.... This is biting the hand that's fed you.... I'm trying to see both sides. I have a deep compassion for those in our industry who've suffered injury... I'm honestly hoping to be helpful here with a true-to-life viewpoint, not come to bat for one side or the other or point fingers.

:agree2:

I'm in a situation where, as a part-time tree service, I could use some part-time help a few hours a week if even that - just for bigger rigging jobs. Through my full-time job, I have a couple of associates who have offered to help me out on a cash basis. We all have health care through our full-time jobs and, for the few hours a year that I actually would need help, it's hard to justify the cost of a work comp policy. There's a minimum fee no matter what your annual payroll is and there's no way I'd even come close to the payroll limit on the most basic work comp policy I could buy.

We've discussed whether we could do it as a contractor/sub-contractor relationship. We've discussed about every way possible. That said, I won't do it unless its on the books and with work comp in place for the very reasons discussed in this thread. My help would be working on my schedule using my equipment. Legally, they would be an employee and I could end up liable if they got hurt. Sure, our primary work insurance would probably cover most of the cost of an injury but, who's going to pay the portion that isn't covered? And, what if someone gets permanantly disabled?

I showed this thread and the pictures of the injury to the guys. They agree - we're going to do it 'on the table' or not at all.