Top handled chain saw use

[Stumper]

Thank you for the kind words Ken. All this leverage talk is useful for explaining WHY tophandles are better for one hand use but in reality all that is necessary is to compare the 2 types with the saw OFF. A normal person will find the rear handle design much more difficult to control one handed. Even if they have the wrist strength to extend the saw and place it accurately. an assistant can flip up the bar nose and demonstrate the difference in kickback effect. Why Mike is unable to sense this is baffling -perhaps he suffers from Reynaud's syndrome?

Statistics and generalities aside I (like Spydy) find that one handed use is sometimes appropriate. One of the reasons that I like the red headed stepchild of climbing saws (the 019T) is that the goofy front handle sweeps back to a rear attachment point permitting 2 handed use in extended positions. Nonetheless, there are still times when I deem one handing appropriate. Awareness of potential danger is necessary. Prudence is definitely required. Rules need never overrule intelligence.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This thread goes hand and hand with the work without insurance thread, it comes down to saving time/money by gambling.
I can do tree work a lot faster/cheaper by screaming down my climbing line, one hand on my hitch, the other hand holding a saw on full throttle, wacking branches off as I drop, all while carrying no insurance.
Cutting one handed comes down to saving time, period. To prove my point, if there were a competition where an odd spot was set up in a tree, and the object of the competition was to go to that spot and cut with two hands, I'm sure we could all do it. Or do you all contend that it could set up that it would be impossible to cut two handed safely?

 

[Stumper]

I simply contend that it is possible to cut one handed safely (at least for some individuals)and that in some situations it makes more sense to make a safe one handed cut(where the angles are suitable for maintaining control and providiing a safe situation if kickback were to occur) in contrast to elaborate and difficult repositioning attempts. I am happy for you that you are a sufficiently skilled climber to position yourself for safe 2 handed chainsaw operation at all times. I am not a very good climber-I do strive to be a safe one. For ME that means occassionally one handing a small chainsaw. I do not suggest that you should start using your saw one handed. We all differ in size and relative wrist and shoulder strengths. Perhaps for you one handed chainsaw use would be very dangerous and foolish. I do maintain that blanket rules applied to all without regard to our differing strengths(and weaknesses) are doomed to prove unreasonable in some situations.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I agree with Stumper.

Z133.1 2000

7.2.7

Chain saws shall be held with the thumbs [see note] and fingers of both hnads encircling the handles during operation.

EXCEPTION: This requirement does not apply when an employer can demonstrate that a greater hazard is posed by keeping both hands on the chain saw in a particular situation. This exception should not apply to light weight chain saws {under 15# [6.8 Kgs]} when used in a tree.

Note: "Thumbs" will be changed to "thumb" in the next version of the Z.

So...there is some built-in wiggle room for employers to allow one handed chain saw use.

My original point in starting this thread wasn't to bring up the bi-annual "One Handed Chainsaw" debate. It is to share another training and work procedure that is a bit more pragmatic. Treework isn't factory assembly line work. Climbing calls for creativity and on the spot thinking too. Knowing work methods that reduce the risk exposure will assure long life.

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Another thing from gymnastics: encircle and lock in with thumb for best grip.

And when you are going around the high-bar, you go in the direction of your thumb, or you peel off. Same as using a pliers, crescent wrench, vice grips, plumber's wrench etc. you turn in the direction of the small "thumb" side, to lock it into the larger, encompassing jaw.

Ya try to look at these things, and set the engineering on your side for best, safest, most positive action. The closer you walk to the edge, the more careful you are to survey and enact upon the situation.

IML,H,O

But then, i never drop start anything save a small climbing saw......... oooops

:alien:

 

[Tim Gardner]

TheTreeSpyder wrote on 05-11-2003 06:57 PM:
Hillbilly is talking about a new brake on rear handle option in addition to the standard front handle actuated brake methinx......

That was a message from kenny.


For those of you who read before jumping on someone so as not to make yourself look stupid, here is a link to Stihl's website explaining the chian brake for their saws.

http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/chain_brake.html

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by Stumper
In one handed chainsaw use the hand placement becomes the fulcrum. A tophandle benefits you by: A. shortening the lever from input(bar nose) and pivot point. B. positioning some of the saw body behind the pivot point to serve as a counterweight.
Thanks for giving me something to argue about-I was starting to agree with far too many of your posts!

i think that Mike was looking it as the tip of the saw being the pivot. The pivot/fulcrum is the part that does not move in all examples, then you have the input force (effort) and the output force (work done) that both move. You are trying to hold your hand solid as the pivot, the tip causes kick at a wide arc concentrated down to the pivot of your wrist, that also becomes the force out point. So power condensces in and not dilutes out to a wider arc. So more power funneled to hand.

Actually, quite an easy mistake to make, done so similar a bunch of times myself, so now i know more where to look hopefully. But i really think if you can break this stuff down like that you can see all the diffrent leverage advantages/disadvantages in all diffrent things that arc (unflexible links) or take numerous pulls on input or output (flexible links). For they are always present, most of the time working for or against you, and a lot of times can be adjusted. Especially important when trying to usher giants around to your bidding.

So, i'm not getting at Mike at as the subject (though figure he is solid enough to take it); but rather just that about all of this is about some kind of input force leveraged in and out of a pivot, and that looking for it like that can reveal a lot. For that is the naked form-ula, that determines/defines any arc of force. The pivot dials in the rest, and is the part that stands out as the piece not trying to move (hopefully), then i look for force input, resultant force output.

edit
:Eye:

 

[Tim Gardner]

Kenny, being polite was the last thing on your mind. You simply did not read my post. But that is ok. I enjoy laughing at you and your lack of knowledge regarding the English language. I am looking forward to meeting you in person so that we can work our differences out. That day will come.

 

[Stumper]

Thanks Tom,
I have a query though----the quote from the Z which you posted says that the exception should not apply to lightweight saws used in the tree. Is it the committee's intention to mandate 2 handed use in all aerial work? Personally, it seems to me that the few legitimate exceptions to the general rule of using both hands almost always involve small saws aloft.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Stumper,

You're on the right track.

I think that by reading and following the UK protocols is a much better way to deal with this issue than to say NO to any one handed use.

This is another place where it is better to have descriptive regulations than prescriptive regulations. But thats the way Americans expect the rules to be.

Tom

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Tom,
How do you feel about two tie in points?

Many cuts can be made safely without a second tie in, do we need to safety in every time? Isn't requiring the use of a safety "prescriptive"?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Mike,

For many years I didn't use two tie ins when I was using a chain saw. For a little insight into why I started to use a double tie in, get out your copy of The Tree Climber's Companion and read down on page 6.

As my career moved along, I decided that it made sense and was prudent to double tie when I used a chainsaw. It added a large margin of safety with very little effort.

Even before it became "the law" when Z133-2000 came out, I was doing that all of the time. Sometimes I double tie when I use my Zubat close to my rope.

Some of the safety practices I do for the benefit of my family and friends more than for myself. I want to be around when my nieces and nephew grow up. Seems to be the responsible thing for me to do.

How does presriptive/descriptive factor in here? I'm kind of thick headed today

I won't let anyone cut without two tie ins. Do you?

Tom

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I was trying to parallel using a lanyard while cutting, to one handed saw use.

How is forcing two tie in points while cutting not prescriptive, but forcing two hands on the saw while cutting, is prescriptive?

When I train a climber, I tell them to position themselves so the saw can be held with two hands, and of course, to be secured twice. If you take the option of one handed saw use out of the picture, the work still gets done with no noticable decrease in production.

To make another parallel, how about drop starting a saw? If you spent your whole carreer drop starting your chainsaw without setting the brake, and you change to setting the brake and starting the saw between your legs, it seems slow and clumsy. If you were trained from the start properly starting a saw, it is just as fast and easy.

Think about these parallels. Over the years I have worked with and watched a lot of climbers, and it seems the ones that "one hand" chainsaws, are also the ones that don't use their lanyard while cutting, improperly start the saw, burn down ropes, tend to use old school methods, ect, ect, ect,.
At the end of training, which climbing style will your trainees have?

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Mike,

Good points about proper training from the start. I didn't have that opportunity. I'd guess that most of the people on this board learned by [poor] example. This was my point originally when I posted the HSE program. By learning proper methods from a certified instructor and assessor, the climbers should have a better chance of making educated decisions. By having a program that has gone through a lot of study and agreement from professionals, the new climbers benefit. Maybe since I've gone through a conversion experience it makes me a bit of an evangelist.

There are times for prescriptions and other times for descriptions. At the beginning of training prescriptions work. Make it a purely physical activity. After a while, when the physical part becomes automatic, then start to give a little mental exercise. Loosen the reigns and allow for some mental excercises. Some people move to that step quicker than others. Some never move and have to be tightly reigned.

Tom

 

[geofore]

2 tie-ins

The first time you go to swat that bee or wasp that just stung you and forget your saw is running as it cuts through your tie-in point you'll figure out why most of us use two. Safety is good. Some of us have been around long enough to rememmber when there was no OSHA. Joke as we might about the safety rules, they do save lives. Look at any old time carpenters, they can't give you a high five because they only have four left. I don't want to make lite of anyone with four digits, I only have five on my left hand cause the doctor at the medical arts center in Van Wert, Ohio sewwed my thumb back on. One moment can cause you to forget and then it's too late. Safety is important, it saves lives.