Tree ID - Chinese/Siberian Elm?

[3fordasho]

Without a doubt the pics show Siberian Elm. I've cut a couple dozen cords of it in the last couple years. The wood lot it came from also had red elm, and believe me the two can be hard to tell apart - some cross breeding going on there makes it difficult. Generally the siberian elm leaves will always be smaller and the leaf top surface will be somewhat glossy and slippery. True red elm leaves will usually be larger (some exceptions) and have a sandpapery feel on the top surface. Bark is not always a good indicator on elms, but the true red elms will have thinner bark than siberian. Siberian bark with have layers in the bark alternating between light and darker layers. Red elm bark much less so. Both red and siberian elm usually are easier to split than american - some trees are bad no matter what. As Whitespider mentioned - red and siberian elm split best green - leave them in the round for a while and the splitting becomes tougher. Once the splits are dried down - siberian will be noticabley lighter than red elm splits.

I don't understand the confusion between red/siberian vs american elm, just cut into the wood and American will be obvious - much whiter wood with a brown looking stain in the middle.

 

[haveawoody]

3fordasho,

Good description on how to tell what is what in elm.
Cut and all will be revealed by wood color.
Rock elm, diamond shape in bark and dark color in middle 75%.

Did we miss any elm types?

 

[3fordasho]

haveawoody - from your descriptions of Rock Elm I sure wish I'd run into some.

Since standing dead elm is so common here is my guide to standing dead elm:

American elm - get it quick because it rots the quickest - even standing. Splits much better in this condition.

Red elm - premium firewood - mother nature cleans it by removing the bark and the wood shrinks down making it denser. Splits much better in this condition.


Siberian elm - same as red elm - this becomes noticably better firewood in this condition then when cut green and seasoned. Splits much better in this condition.
Less standing dead around because does not fall to dutch elm disease.

Rock Elm - can't tell ya cause never come across a single stick :-(

 

[haveawoody]

3fordasho,

I almost never see Red elm here, maybe cut 2 over the years and both on peoples properties.
You must be right about on the border of the northern rock elm range in southern Min, keep an eye out for the diamond shape in the bark I'm sure you will have some here and there.
When you find one the slow saw speed will make you think it's dull.
Same here for the dead elm, seems like 70% are dead or heading that way, ash even worse here 90%.

Rock is really nice firewood IMO very close to Osage for heat output and burn times.
Heavy as green hickory when it's dry LOL

 

[Whitespider]

The top big leaf screems American Elm but the other says something else...

Actually... no... none of those pictures scream American Elm at me.
First, the proportions are all wrong... an American Elm leaf should be wider in relation to the length.
Second, the American Elm leaf has a much more pronounced oblique base.
Third, the American Elm leaf doesn't taper as gradually to the tip, in fact it can hardly be called a taper... and the narrow tip area is shorter, or even non-existant.
Forth, the American Elm leaf margin serrations are courser, and more pointed... and the serrations point towards the leaf tip.
Fifth, the American Elm leaf does not have the subtle "shininess" of the Siberian Elm leaf... and I'm seeing that "shininess" in your pictures.

Actually, everything about those pictures scream Siberian Elm to me... but what do I know (shrug).

Siberian on top, American on bottom...

 

[NDtreehugger]

This may help


Sorry its so big

Looks like hmmmm

 

[sw18x]

Well now I've got a decision to make about that elm...

For the first time in over a year, the woodpile reached zero at 1230pm today. I Finally got all the wood for this year - some of it oak and locust seasoning since last August on the ground - cleared out and split. Just in time to bring in three truckloads and 2.5 trailer loads of the Siberian Elm later this afternoon, which is the start of next year's wood. All my wood racks are now FULL, including an overflow stack of 3 full cords of pine on pallets. Which means, the elm sits on the ground in rounds until at least next spring, because I have nowhere to put fresh splits. But if the Siberian Elm splits better green, I'd rather split it this year instead. Either way, I can't split it for several weeks while I get caught up on other projects, but should I go out of my way to split it in September and just toss the splits in a pile on the ground in the wood pile? I mean, how bad does this stuff split? I've never worked with Elm before. I have a massive splitter (5" cylinder, 36" throw), but when it comes to stringy stuff, it doesn't matter how much power you have if you're still going to have to split every round 2 or three times to cut through the strings. Any thoughts?

And oh yeah, you're right, this elm is heavy AND stinky stuff!

 

[haveawoody]

sw18x,

Don't try to split it in two but hold the round off center as the splitter arrives so that only the outside 4-6" gets split.
Same thing on the second and third split etc.
Elm and splitting on the round makes even the stringiest beast easy.

Get a few pallets and throw all the elm on them, no fuss no muss.
In the late fall after you load up the house for the first fires then deal with the elm to replace the taken.

 

[Whitespider]

This may help
Looks like hmmmm...

Still looks like Siberian Elm to me.

Did you know...

• The Siberian Elm was first introduced to the U.S. as an ornamental in the 1860's.
• The Siberian Elm was first planted in N.D. in 1905 just 100 miles south of you (Minot, N.D.).
• The Siberian Elm is quite hardy in N.D., actually thrives because the climate and soil conditions closely mimic its native Asian range.
• The Siberian Elm was widely planted in N.D. during the 1930's Great Plains Shelterbelt project (because of its hardiness in that area).
• During the 1960's trillions of Siberian Elm seedlings were sold to N.D. farmers for shelterbelts (no longer in practice).
• Although the Siberian Elm is resistant (not immune) to DED, it is quite susceptible to a malady of insect, fungal and bacterial diseases... one common one is Bacterial Wetwood (which leaves wounds and scars just like those in your pictures).
• The eastern 2/3's of N.D. has one of the highest concentrations of wild spreading Siberian Elm in the country.
• The Siberian Elm will hybridize with native species of Elms, quite readily with Slippery Elm, but also with American Elm which will, or can cause characteristics (such as leaf size) of the tree to morph... and it pollutes the gene pool of the native, slowly breeding it out of existence.
• North Dakota (unlike states such as Minnesota which have declared it an Invasive Species) has not studied or made determinations as to the invasive extent of the Siberian Elm.

Sorry man, but even the bark and branching characteristics of that tree in your pictures looks more like Siberian Elm than it does American Elm. I've got maybe 300 American Elm of various sizes growing in my yard and woodlot, from seedlings to over 3 foot diameter; your pictures do not show anything close to resembling any of them... but those pictures look a whole lot like the Siberian Elm found growing in the fence lines and pastures (Siberian Elm likes open areas with a lot of sun, won't invade a woodlot).

 

[NDtreehugger]

Still looks like Siberian Elm to me.

Did you know...

• The Siberian Elm was first introduced to the U.S. as an ornamental in the 1860's.
• The Siberian Elm was first planted in N.D. in 1905 just 100 miles south of you (Minot, N.D.).
• The Siberian Elm is quite hardy in N.D., actually thrives because the climate and soil conditions closely mimic its native Asian range.
• The Siberian Elm was widely planted in N.D. during the 1930's Great Plains Shelterbelt project (because of its hardiness in that area).
• During the 1960's trillions of Siberian Elm seedlings were sold to N.D. farmers for shelterbelts (no longer in practice).
• Although the Siberian Elm is resistant (not immune) to DED, it is quite susceptible to a malady of insect, fungal and bacterial diseases... one common one is Bacterial Wetwood (which leaves wounds and scars just like those in your pictures).
• The eastern 2/3's of N.D. has one of the highest concentrations of wild spreading Siberian Elm in the country.
• The Siberian Elm will hybridize with native species of Elms, quite readily with Slippery Elm, but also with American Elm which will, or can cause characteristics (such as leaf size) of the tree to morph... and it pollutes the gene pool of the native, slowly breeding it out of existence.
• North Dakota (unlike states such as Minnesota which have declared it an Invasive Species) has not studied or made determinations as to the invasive extent of the Siberian Elm.

Sorry man, but even the bark and branching characteristics of that tree in your pictures looks more like Siberian Elm than it does American Elm. I've got maybe 300 American Elm of various sizes growing in my yard and woodlot, from seedlings to over 3 foot diameter; your pictures do not show anything close to resembling any of them... but those pictures look a whole lot like the Siberian Elm found growing in the fence lines and pastures (Siberian Elm likes open areas with a lot of sun, won't invade a woodlot).

You convinced me as to what it is, I dont want a Siberian anything so I cut the tree down and will be planting a a trio of apple trees, Now I can sleep at night with a few days of heat and in a couple of years I'll have apple pie

 

[Whitespider]

...I dont want a Siberian anything so I cut the tree down...

Good! :msp_tongue: That's exactly what I would've done.
I've been trying to convince one of my neighbors to cut down the two growing in his yard for years now... sure wish he was as easy to convince.

 

[NDtreehugger]

Good! :msp_tongue: That's exactly what I would've done.
I've been trying to convince one of my neighbors to cut down the two growing in his yard for years now... sure wish he was as easy to convince.

But the seeds look like?

 

[cat-face timber]

Not much to add, but here goes.
We have Chinese Elm here.
I fell a couple trees for my Mom last fall and they sure are WET and HEAVY and STINKY.
They burn good when dry, but they leave alot of ashes.


The stumps keep putting out suckers(small limbs), so very hard to kill.

 

[NDtreehugger]

Not much to add, but here goes.
We have Chinese Elm here.
I fell a couple trees for my Mom last fall and they sure are WET and HEAVY and STINKY.
They burn good when dry, but they leave alot of ashes.


The stumps keep putting out suckers(small limbs), so very hard to kill.

I have an Elm self starter by the pole barn I had to cut down, it keeps growing back every year
I thought after 3 years it would be done with but this year it came back again.
This year I drilled 3 - 1" holes about a foot into the tree and filled with salt will see what happens next.

 

[cat-face timber]

I have an Elm self starter by the pole barn I had to cut down, it keeps growing back every year
I thought after 3 years it would be done with but this year it came back again.
This year I drilled 3 - 1" holes about a foot into the tree and filled with salt will see what happens next.

The only way my dad could ever totally kill a Elm tree was to build a Chicken pen around it.
That sure killed it!

We even tried copper nails... no luck!

 

[Whitespider]

But the seeds look like?

Those are seeds from a Siberian Elm!!
Here are two more pictures of Siberian Elm seeds and they look just like yours!

American Elm seeds are not as perfectly round, they're a bit longer than than they are wide... sort'a oblong.
American Elm seeds are hairy around the edges and the "notch" goes deep into the wing, near all the way to the seed.
For comparison, here are two pictures of American Elm seeds...

 

[haveawoody]

NDtreehugger,

Aren't elms tough things to remove.
I bet it endures pretty much anything you do to it.
An easy way to depart the tree is to cut two rings all the way around the tree near the bottom and maybe 6" apart.
Then pry out that section of bark.
Works on pretty much everything other than locust, it comes back like a mega shoot weed after doing that.

 

[NDtreehugger]

Those are seeds from a Siberian Elm!!
Here are two more pictures of Siberian Elm seeds and they look just like yours!
American Elm seeds are not as perfectly round, they're a bit longer than than they are wide... sort'a oblong.
American Elm seeds are hairy around the edges and the "notch" goes deep into the wing, near all the way to the seed.
For comparison, here are two pictures of American Elm seeds...
QUOTE]

No, it’s Firewood,

I call it DDDD, Dead, Dying, Diseased, Damaged.

Anything and everything I find DDDD, I search out find and fell anything diseased, dead, dying or damaged and turn it into firewood, dead, diseased, dying or damaged is the first thing I look for then there is also Russian Olive, old and unwanted fruit trees. and that small stuff with the funny bark that burn like coal.
I love to find that stuff, small fire with coals that last all night.