Underbidding

[HolmenTree]

I run my tree service here in Canada from Apr.1 to the middle of Nov. Winter is severe here Nov. to Mar. Good time to be in the shop getting ready for next season. But we are blessed with long summer days here,day light from 4am to midnight.You can put a long day in here and take the weekends off to recoop.
Look at my signature and you can see I'm a small operator.Me and my groundie who I'm fortunate to have stuck with me for 3 years now, have made as much as $3,700 in a 14hr day. The job was 7 balsam poplars 50' x 24"dia. as wide as tall all alongside a house.Everthing hauled away including stump grinding chips ,ground leveled & raked up.All the customer had to do was spread a little black dirt and some grass seed. Now some other tree services might have charged more but then it might take them alot longer to do. I have confidence in my felling from prior experience as a faller.Just dropping the tree saves you alot of time. Only 2 of these trees I had to climb and rig down.Yes I have taken all the Arbormaster courses since 2001.
I figure my outfit has to make $150 hr and $200hr if I have to climb to make it all worthwhile in the tree & stump removal & pruning business.We charge $5 per inch [stump dia. at ground level] cleanup included.

 

[treemandan]

Treeman dan I was referring to what you said at least I think, was paying
on a 1000. dollar job 300. Correct me if I am wrong but overhead comes out before tax, well I am inc. maybe that is the diff; I don't
understand half of what my accountant tells me

Yes, I pay my taxes( fed and etc, and self employment tax which covers SS, medi and whatnot) based on the adj. gross. Overhead adjusts the gross.
Being a sole prop is a little hairy but I would relly have to start armageddon for someone to come after me, I take it easy and stick to what I know. I would like to go LLC and am just bideing time to see if it will pan out.
I guess it is different for everybody and the only job I have is my little operation but my operation is not the only source of income for my household.
I will go along with my company and see where it takes me, yes, it could go south for a number of reasons but it could also go up.
It is very competitive with older companies bidding to keep going and new companies that do what they have to do. Its a FN mess!
I lost a buunch of jobs to guys who do it cheaper and I think that I am extremely fair in my bids. I like this work very much, I don't like this business. People who hire me are happy and that makes me happy and that's all it is. My business plan is to maintain this level for a few years and go from there, as long as I have enough to buy a box and get a hole dug at the end I guess I did allright. I should just buy a lawnmower or frozen yogurt stand.

 

[ropensaddle]

Seriously though, its hard to tell from the pics, but probably alot more just for the danger factor. I'm guessing you didnt dare rope anything to that or climb it so it was probablt pretty quick-am I right? Probably took 5-6 hours, my guess.

Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
6hours except for the head scratching and extra rope for preventing a
nightmare. Also;it was just me and my wife and one groundy!
4 hours first day, 5 hours second, but I am the only one with cdl
and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
I took way longer than needed but much study went in too it and by the
time I cut, all doubt of a problem had been eliminated.

 

[tree MDS]

Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
6hours except for the head scratching and extra rope for preventing a
nightmare. Also;it was just me and my wife and one groundy!
4 hours first day, 5 hours second, but I am the only one with cdl
and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
I took way longer than needed but much study went in too it and by the
time I cut, all doubt of a problem had been eliminated.

Nice work man-still a decent check for the biz even with all the driving around, thats the way I look at that stuff. BTW, the third pic still reminds me of my ex! I like a bull rope and my tractor winch for that type of hairy s#!@, once I cut some I just step away and give the signal-down it goes, thing is so fast and powerfull, I love it.

 

[ropensaddle]

To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward
a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
and 10 for a orange colored company. Now someone can come in and
start scrutinizing me if they want to, but I have more than paid my dues.
I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never
take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.

 

[ropensaddle]

Nice work man-still a decent check for the biz even with all the driving around, thats the way I look at that stuff. BTW, the third pic still reminds me of my ex!

Now you have to ask yourself, was it you or prior partners that made
her that way

 

[treemandan]

Oh yeah then there is this: The #1 reason that I have the clients I do now is
THEY TRUST ME TO DO THE SAME JOB SOMEONE ELSE WILL DO AT A BETTER PRICE.
You can't just read that as one sentence because there is a lot more to it, OF COURSE. What are the key words? There is not one that isn't.You have to account for the interpretations of every single person, some who you never have met and you never thought could exist.



New ventures are challenged, like old ones, but it is not the same. You have to understand Mikey D's is a lot more , uhm, busy?. Let's here some more about the old days; What was it like? ( I am not actually asking to hear what it is like, but think to yourself)

All this, while trudging down another highly technikel, highly dangerous and surely should be a highly profitable day.

 

[treemandan]

To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward
a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
and 10 for a orange colored company. Now someone can come in and
start scrutinizing me if they want to, but I have more than paid my dues.
I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never
take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.

Some think " oh look there is good money by noon", and get traumatized or worse. My craftsmen saw and numerous apparatuses's were splendid when I part timed around in 94 or so.. No ads, no ins, no taxes. I worked for money, beer, or parts, still do. Total tally? Not much. Talk about underbidding. I did a jobs for my cheap landlord in North Philly.( I think My trailer is still there.) He gave me a 1977 IH Scout with a V8, 33's and a rag
top. Jump started it out of crap hole down there drove it to the other side of the river where I replaced a freeze plug and U-bolted the body down. Used it to yank stumps and haul brush. Did a job for my boss( car chop) to chop down a tree, so I notched half of it in to the street- cops start screamming and I just look at him and say" Just give me a second". My buddy, for a 100, and I put it in the truck and took it to the woods. You know the woods, they place they just bulldozed and built cheap luxo-lots on just under the power lines? You find a lot more than my piles down there and that cop was just a quick pushover baby, yeah!
Back then I did jobs for people I knew only, and didn't't think to much of it. I was glad to be doing something interesting and challenging and it helped pay the rent. I liked the feeling it gave me and that evolved in to what some may call my business.

 

[treemandan]

Well no as far as roping, the limbs where huge at my buckets
sixty foot height and red oak so weighted good! I got all I could off
and hooked up my winch strapped that base and slowly cut it. The
top of that tree was live and holding wood scarce, it would have been
6hours except for the head scratching and extra rope for preventing a
nightmare. Also;it was just me and my wife and one groundy!
4 hours first day, 5 hours second, but I am the only one with cdl
and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
I took way longer than needed but much study went in too it and by the
time I cut, all doubt of a problem had been eliminated.

Better to spend time to study than to bust your ... That is what makes it possible. Nice job there. looked hard to drop, love them ropes and winches.

 

[lxt]

To all the part timers I don't see a problem if you are working toward
a goal of being a business. If you have insurance and are licensed that is!
I worked part time for two years but my day job was supervising tree work
around powerlines and had been doing that for 13 years for that company
and 10 for a orange colored company. Now someone can come in and
start scrutinizing me if they want to, but I have more than paid my dues.
I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never
take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.

Rope I agree & know what it is like to work the LCTT field as a crewleader/babysitter, as for your opening statement I agree again, tried to rep ya but says I need to spread it around some.

Ropes area is like mine as far as money making go, Ive talked to others from AS on the phone & here to make $500 a day is pretty good Ive had days I make $1000 very, very few Ive made $1500. The way it is here if I make $600-800 Im happy.......folks here will quibble over $25 & less some times.

What I hate & some on here may have taken it wrong is when a job is gonna take a 3-4 man crew 8+ hrs & I bid $800 & then some pickup truck with guys who have day jobs other than tree work who are part timers bid it for $400, cause it each one of them makes a $100 a day their happy!!! & they always ask for cash!!

Thats why when I hear people say I pick & choose I wonder is it really pick & choose or is that you do the jobs that people only pay you cash? Im not pointing the finger here, Im just saying thats what happens in my neck of the woods.......so I apologize if I lumped anybody into this category that doesnt deserve to be!!


LXT.................Damit why cant a tree guy hit the lottery?

 

[ropensaddle]

Rope I agree & know what it is like to work the LCTT field as a crewleader/babysitter, as for your opening statement I agree again, tried to rep ya but says I need to spread it around some.

Ropes area is like mine as far as money making go, Ive talked to others from AS on the phone & here to make $500 a day is pretty good Ive had days I make $1000 very, very few Ive made $1500. The way it is here if I make $600-800 Im happy.......folks here will quibble over $25 & less some times.

What I hate & some on here may have taken it wrong is when a job is gonna take a 3-4 man crew 8+ hrs & I bid $800 & then some pickup truck with guys who have day jobs other than tree work who are part timers bid it for $400, cause it each one of them makes a $100 a day their happy!!! & they always ask for cash!!

Thats why when I hear people say I pick & choose I wonder is it really pick & choose or is that you do the jobs that people only pay you cash? Im not pointing the finger here, Im just saying thats what happens in my neck of the woods.......so I apologize if I lumped anybody into this category that doesnt deserve to be!!


LXT.................Damit why cant a tree guy hit the lottery?

That frustration is affecting all of us as well as illegal labor. I have see more illegals stealing work than the cash drunks but neither are good. If you fall into these categories, I don't and wont support it and just know that fines for working unlicensed is hefty and will set you back!

 

[pdqdl]

Damn those CDL requirements!

...but I am the only one with cdl
and both trucks are cdl so; get bucket drive home and get mack grapple!
...

I have the same problem getting qualified drivers. All my current drivers are "home grown". I should start a CDL school.

By the way, that would probably be a $2500 tree around here, just for the scare value. I presume you were able to get close with your grapple truck to pick up the mess? Most of our jobs don't have enough room to drop 101' tall trees. Not that there are many trees in KC that are that tall.

Did you cut that sucker off at the base, or did you go up the trunk a good way? I would have been afraid of the stump crushing during the cut.

 

[pdqdl]

Arborist exam

...I bought 900.00 worth of study material and software and even if I never take the test to be an arborist, I consider myself one.

Take the test! Unless you have been spending all your time with your head [where the sun don't shine], it'll be a breeze. With that many years of experience, just focus on the plant biology, and ISA's sometimes silly rules/guidelines.

Sadly, I think that a fellow could easily pass the test, and be clueless how to do the work. My favorite one is where they instruct you to never cut a felling wedge deeper than 1/3 the trunk diameter. NO FOOLING! It's in the book.

 

[treemandan]

Take the test! Unless you have been spending all your time with your head [where the sun don't shine], it'll be a breeze. With that many years of experience, just focus on the plant biology, and ISA's sometimes silly rules/guidelines.

Sadly, I think that a fellow could easily pass the test, and be clueless how to do the work. My favorite one is where they instruct you to never cut a felling wedge deeper than 1/3 the trunk diameter. NO FOOLING! It's in the book.

Not to start an argument and of course I speak for myself but it seems highly illogical , Captain, for me to past a test that says I is when I ain't. Also I wasn't attempting sarcasm but couldn't pass up up the reference.

Have I lost jobs because I am not certified? Yup. And to maple spikers and toppers, would you believe it? Have I been jibber jabbered to the point of exhaustion by sales pitches concerning certain certification? True. Is your prowlness measured by a number of trusted clients that keep you rolling? Are you able to find more?
I worked at Uhaul( part time of course) as a truck mechanic at odd hours. Randy (head guy) asked me , in a raptured tone during a conversation " What better way is there to judge a mechanics level of competence than to use the flat rate system?" The flat rate system, if you are not famliar, is when you get paid by the job and the job only pays so much. Could be nice, it could suck. Now my response was directed to the topic so I told him that if really wanted to know that maybe he should become a competent mechanic for a few days. It was OK, he was up against a pretty big wall and being the YES man that I know he needed to be I let it slide. I left because of the traffic getting to the place and of course being a part of that pretty big wall.
The guys new thing was that you had to fix 3 trucks a day. Does that remind anyone of anything?

 

[ropensaddle]

I have the same problem getting qualified drivers. All my current drivers are "home grown". I should start a CDL school.

By the way, that would probably be a $2500 tree around here, just for the scare value. I presume you were able to get close with your grapple truck to pick up the mess? Most of our jobs don't have enough room to drop 101' tall trees. Not that there are many trees in KC that are that tall.

Did you cut that sucker off at the base, or did you go up the trunk a good way? I would have been afraid of the stump crushing during the cut.

I cut it at the base, the trunk was hollow at least twenty feet if you look, you can see the decay goes up that trunk twenty feet. I was not sure if it stopped there or went further! I had to use the buckets 20 ton winch and did not really want to be in the tree if all hel? broke loose! I have some extra heavy duty strap binders that I wrapped around the base to prevent blow out and made a slight notch winched it until the top moved a few feet and started my cut. Once it started moving signaled to my wife to bring it on over. The backup rope took slack in case cable or winch failure, which my winch has never had so felt confident.


In the pic you can see the strap binder i wrapped 20feet and bound it down tight it prevented exploding stump!


As far as the test, yes I plan to take it but must make a living,
will wait until it comes to town and I am less busy.

 

[masterarbor]

 

[treemandan]

Why the long face?

Ropes! Ropes! ROPES! Fanfntastic! and YEEFNHAA! NICE NICE NICE. That grapple makes that one go away easy, I bet. I knew a guy who dug a hole in a cemetary so deep you could have fit 500 trees like that in it. And that's exactly what he did.
I have done trees just like that and some where the top had the decay. You bet I overthink.

 

[chucknduck]

I don't understand that guy a lot of times either- Tom Trees that is.
I just got back from the firehouse where I was having a beer with my competition. He was hammered, I tend to stay sober.
Anyway we talked about an insurance job we both bid on : His= 1900.00 Mine 950.00. We both looked at each other in amazement. Turns out the homeowner kept the insurance money and had his kids clean it up.
I was pretty sure I could have been out of there in less than a day so here is the breakdown. I use a contactor with his own insurance, a buddy.
My buddy= 200
Gas= what the heck 50
I only really work in a ten mile radius( (job was 4 min from my shop) with dump sites close by and we needed the tree truck, chipper and the Dingo.There was no climbing just picking up and removing a fallen lombardy roughly 30' dia dbh. We would have quartered the logs( punky dead) and fed them to the chipper which might have been 1 load. So I figured my total operating cost for my end( which includes fed taxes) at 300.00.
So my net profit would have been 400 for a 3/4 day of not so difficult work.
I thought that was OK because around 400.00 is what I usually got when I subbed for other companies climbing crazy stuff with a crane all day long.
I don't know though, I am not in it to get rich. If I wanted to be rich I would not do this for a living.
The other guy would have been there jerking around with his overly dopeheaded guys who run themselves over with the truck they are driving. If you think that is not possible you are wrong.There would have been 3 of them and they would have... well you just use your imagination.
Open for comments but I think its reasonable.

I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck

 

[tree MDS]

I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck

Good post, thats what I'm talking about! See someone very successful in this buisiness once told me that if you work too cheap all you'll end up with when you're older is some broken down obsolete equipment and alot of underdeveloed clients etc. But that really stuck with me because when the days of young super climber are gone what becomes of me after all my work? I want to someday be driving around checking on the boys, doing a little work just to stay in shape, running the biz-not some joke to the young punks all old with my broken down junk equipment, feeling tired out and like an old loser. Just 2 more cents.

 

[treemandan]

I am young and don't have all that much experience, but I can tell you that it would be hard to grow your business or even stay a float at $400 a day. Some of the other guys have talked about unexpected expenses that come up, and they must know from experience. I won't work for that amount of money. I am in tree work to make a good living! I hATE the competition when they bid work too cheap, so I bought all kinds of equipment so I can do 5 times as much work as they can in a day with half the people. I went from having no equipment at all, a year and a half ago, to having a grapple , a bucket, a chipper, stumper, trailers, and everything else all paid for! Good luck

I does depend on what you do for the 400 and also you have to look at what it cost you to make it. Labor is labor, for that money expect to hammer out a full day with a crane or other hairy job, probably with a crew of half legall immigrants or a crew of miscrents. So you just have a truck and your climbing gear. And that 400 is gross while working on the 1099.
Net 400 doing a small easy job that equals 950 which might be 6 hours and cost you your labor plus 550 ( that's everything!). I don't see the problem.
I just bid 4300 for 3 guys and a climber, 2 trucks, chipper, loader. I figure we do it right and unstressed for 2 days, if it goes right. I doubt that I will get that job because I am sure another company can go lower. And they will.
I get smacked out by a company who has been around for years and they have to compete. Where is the profit if they are cheaper? Labor. How do you cheapen the labor? In three words- ITS NOT GOOD.
I think companies that are making awesome money have a very elite clientel and , of course are bad at business. I use the word bad as would Dennis Rodman. Elite clients or not you better be bad.
Out here, where people don't think about trees, they don't care about reputation either. In fact the worse you are known to be the more work you get because that means cheap! Go ahead, go up to them and tell them how much of a tree guy you are and how much you have studied and how much you think you are worth. The next thing they do is call another guy, if you can beat his price for the same job you're out.
Of course I refer to new clients but even old ones who call you back expect it for free. Hell, they payed you last time.
Today I messed around with some business crapola until 2pm when I did a job for 300.00, by myself, and got back to make dinner at 5:30. Tomorrow I will attempt 300 for a full day( sub- climbing) showing them how to finish removing this oak and why they should have called me first, but they allready know why. It will be an easy day and my cost is labor and a few bucks for gas. If I am not out in 8 its 40 bucks and hour to a guy who works WITH me.