Underbidding

[tree MDS]

Lets put it this way- the job is still worth what the job should be worth- if it were firewood, a cord would still be a cord, regardless of whether or not you had to split it with a maul or a processor. Around here its topped out at 200 a cord, the only thing that changes that is when some ignorant #@$$ sells it for 150 (and its probably crap/short), then it becomes worth 150 to the customer-and of course a cord IS a cord, and now it should be 150. Its just been de-valued by a firewood hack-and if it was still a good cord then why would you charge less even though you had to bust yer a$$ more with a maul?

 

[TDunk]

Well here's a serious question now. When the TWP. had those 27 trees to take down etc..... i based my bid by the tree (how much i would charge per tree). But would i be better off charging by the day per-say. I figured 3 days to complete. $100 an hour X 3 days =$2400. But when i did my bid, i knew about 9 of the trees my groundies could take down no prob. while i was doing chipping at another location. So if i bid by the tree i'd make ALOT more money than charging by the day. Just wondering other people thoughts on how they bid these bigger jobs. I'm just wondering if maybe i screwed up on the bid doing it by the tree rather than by the day.

 

[tree MDS]

Well here's a serious question now. When the TWP. had those 27 trees to take down etc..... i based my bid by the tree (how much i would charge per tree). But would i be better off charging by the day per-say. I figured 3 days to complete. $100 an hour X 3 days =$2400. But when i did my bid, i knew about 9 of the trees my groundies could take down no prob. while i was doing chipping at another location. So if i bid by the tree i'd make ALOT more money than charging by the day. Just wondering other people thoughts on how they bid these bigger jobs. I'm just wondering if maybe i screwed up on the bid doing it by the tree rather than by the day.

I bid based on an hourly rate and try to estimate how long it should take- unless its a really big takedown, then I just go with what I feel it should be based on expierience. If its a big takedown and you cant get a bucket or crane to it then I'm all over it because its my specialty, I go nice and high. Last summer I won a bid for a big a$$ed Red Oak, dead/no access, got it for 3600 because nobody wanted to touch it. Thats got alot to do with how I survive.

 

[mckeetree]

Lets put it this way- the job is still worth what the job should be worth- if it were firewood, a cord would still be a cord, regardless of whether or not you had to split it with a maul or a processor. Around here its topped out at 200 a cord, the only thing that changes that is when some ignorant #@$$ sells it for 150 (and its probably crap/short), then it becomes worth 150 to the customer-and of course a cord IS a cord, and now it should be 150. Its just been de-valued by a firewood hack-and if it was still a good cord then why would you charge less even though you had to bust yer a$$ more with a maul?

You are right. The job is worth what it is worth. Bucket truck or no bucket truck. Saying the job should pay less because you did not use a bucket truck is like saying it's worth less because you are going to do it in green socks. Ridiculous.

 

[2FatGuys]

You are right. The job is worth what it is worth. Bucket truck or no bucket truck. Saying the job should pay less because you did not use a bucket truck is like saying it's worth less because you are going to do it in green socks. Ridiculous.

You guys are COMPLETELY missing the point! These two local services are building in the cost of the bucket truck even when they CAN'T use it! You aren't reading the post as written! Go back and re-read.

I, like TreeMDS, "specialize" in big difficult removals where climbing and rigging experience are of great value. I do NOT low-ball, yet I still beat out these two large local tree services a lot simply because I don't charge for a bucket truck that I'm not going to use. I charge a high enough rate that I lose jobs to the "Bubba's Tree and Tax Service" guys a lot. All I have been trying to point out is that there are "underbids" and there are "lowballs". Underbids happen. Lowballs are a PITA.

 

[masterarbor]

You guys are COMPLETELY missing the point! These two local services are building in the cost of the bucket truck even when they CAN'T use it! You aren't reading the post as written! Go back and re-read.

yeah, he's just saying that they have to bill in the overhead, which is a good point. but why should you charge less just because it costs less for you to operate. at the end of the day, it is the operator's expertise that you bill for not his big shiny equipment. i would never think to myself, "i can't wait to get all my equipment paid for so i can start charging less."

 

[tree MDS]

Just got back from looking at a nice job, alot of "arbor-snipping", as I like to call it, some bucket trimming, small stuff, little dead, some limbs, a hemlock hedge that needs some topping with an orchard ladder, pruning numerous small trees for structure etc., there is also a large maple( 90' ) that could use some minor pruning and maybe a cable. I figured about a day and a half. I gave him a price based on my hourly rate, he seemed fine with it and stated that I should give him a few days- there are also some bigger trees he is debating on taking down, he will talk over with the wife-I come reffered from a prominate local lawn jockey and the house is worth millions. He is changing tree guys from his old one- my ex boss from 13 years ago who's shop is next door to mine-thats the second big dollar est. in less than a week that used to be his clients. Ya gotta love it, thats what happens when you get too comforatable and send out your crackheads to do all yer work. I did knock off 300 for light duty/high vis., but I will still be getting more than 150 per hour with about half of the job handsaw/snips.-and I get to stick it to the old boss Gotta love it. Handsnips pay well on occaision. Here is a situation where you get paid for yer knowledge/expierience, do you think I should have bid it at 75 per hour because there isnt much bucket work???

 

[2FatGuys]

Apparently, I'm just a little more tedious with my bidding than some of you. I figure total cost to do a job... MY cost... then figure how much I want to pocket... add those together and you get a total bid price. It's really a simple process. If a job cannot be reached by a bucket truck and it takes a climber (at $100 / hr) for 4 hours, 2 groundies (at $75 / hr each) for 6 hours, and a chipper (at $75 / hr) for 4 hours, then my total COST is $1,600. If I determine that I want to poket a 50% margin on top of that, then I add $800 and my bid is $2,400. Notice - the job does not require a bucket, why would I charge for it? I'm not diminishing the value of the work at all. I am only charging a fair price (for me and for the customer) for a definable amount of work. By the way, the rates quoted above are for illustration only so we can all do the simple math in our heads.

I applaud you guys for being able to sleep at night after charging a homeowner for work not done or equipment not needed. However, my business ethics prevent me from feeling good about CHEATING the client. In the mean time, while I continue to learn the "proper" business model from you guys, I'll continue to charge for what I actually do and for the equipment that is actually necessary.

 

[tree MDS]

Apparently, I'm just a little more tedious with my bidding than some of you. I figure total cost to do a job... MY cost... then figure how much I want to pocket... add those together and you get a total bid price. It's really a simple process. If a job cannot be reached by a bucket truck and it takes a climber (at $100 / hr) for 4 hours, 2 groundies (at $75 / hr each) for 6 hours, and a chipper (at $75 / hr) for 4 hours, then my total COST is $1,600. If I determine that I want to poket a 50% margin on top of that, then I add $800 and my bid is $2,400. Notice - the job does not require a bucket, why would I charge for it? I'm not diminishing the value of the work at all. I am only charging a fair price (for me and for the customer) for a definable amount of work. By the way, the rates quoted above are for illustration only so we can all do the simple math in our heads.

I applaud you guys for being able to sleep at night after charging a homeowner for work not done or equipment not needed. However, my business ethics prevent me from feeling good about CHEATING the client. In the mean time, while I continue to learn the "proper" business model from you guys, I'll continue to charge for what I actually do and for the equipment that is actually necessary.

I'd say at 3200 a day you are allready charging more than enough. Sorry, I did'nt read all the way through-2400 for 4 hours ? is that possible ? not that I've never heard of it but...jeez, damn.

 

[2FatGuys]

4 hours of climber, 4 hours of chipper, 12 total hours of groundies.

I don't price jobs "by the day". All jobs are different. Some can be done solo while others require a crew and a fleet of support equipment. Again, my only reason for going through all this is to explain that there is "underbidding" (a fair and competitive process) and there is "lowballing" (an aggressive tactic that, as you all have noted, cheapens the market). I practice "underbidding" any time the competition practices "overbidding".

"Part time Super Trimmer" = picking the jobs I WANT to do when I WANT to do them.

 

[tree MDS]

4 hours of climber, 4 hours of chipper, 12 total hours of groundies.

"Part time Super Trimmer" = picking the jobs I WANT to do when I WANT to do them.

No wonder you are only part time, I would think it would be real hard to stay busy at that rate. Maybe I should become a part time super trimmer

 

[lxt]

No wonder you are only part time, I would think it would be real hard to stay busy at that rate. Maybe I should become a part time super trimmer

Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "SUPER TRIMMER"



LXT...............

 

[tree MDS]

Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "SUPER TRIMMER"



LXT...............

LOL. LXT, that was a really friggin good one.

 

[mckeetree]

Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "SUPER TRIMMER"



LXT...............

That's rich.

 

[treemandan]

Sounds like you need to get an accountant!

Why, so he can tell me what? Sure, what I posted is not exact but a rough idea. I can't complain to net 300 to 400 on a easy 6 hour job. That is what goes in my personal account, pretty sure of it.
I bid 2500 for a little bit of a challenge gum and the lady told me she got a quote for 1100. She is going to send me the other guys quote so I can look it over. I asked her if it included the stump and she said yes. I have been in this position before and sometimes when I see the other quote it is not for all the bells and whistles, sometimes it is. Yes, we are talking about a real tree service. I feel sorry for the employees of that company.
To be honest, all my jobs are underbid, and so are yours. Know what I mean?
The only problem I have paying all my expenses and making money is the slow season, even then it is not much of a problem.

 

[treemandan]

Why, so he can tell me what? Sure, what I posted is not exact but a rough idea. I can't complain to net 300 to 400 on a easy 6 hour job. That is what goes in my personal account, pretty sure of it.
I bid 2500 for a little bit of a challenge gum and the lady told me she got a quote for 1100. She is going to send me the other guys quote so I can look it over. I asked her if it included the stump and she said yes. I have been in this position before and sometimes when I see the other quote it is not for all the bells and whistles, sometimes it is. Yes, we are talking about a real tree service. I feel sorry for the employees of that company.
To be honest, all my jobs are underbid, and so are yours. Know what I mean?
The only problem I have paying all my expenses and making money is the slow season, even then it is not much of a problem.

I don't think I would drive very far for that kind of money though. And it stings to lose a job to those with bigger crews and new shiny and huge equipment. I rarely burn 50 bucks a day in fuel.

 

[TDunk]

Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "SUPER TRIMMER"



LXT...............

HA HA HA. well said. I like the term "Super Trimmer". It has a ring to it.

 

[lxt]

Treemandan, thats what these Evening warriors dont realize, when you go full legit......you better bank for the slow times!!!


LXT..............

 

[2FatGuys]

Well first you will have to have a day job other than tree work....Like say; drywall plant worker, Lowes salesman, Wal-mart cashier....you get the Idea! then & only then can you be a "SUPER TRIMMER"

Does "Architect" count? Actually, while I feel like I am well compensated for my architectural work, I feel like my ability to pick and choose which tree jobs I do is even better. I don't "Super Trim" to lowball the honest tree guys. In fact, I send them PLENTY of work that I don't want to do. But... I get to climb and stay "in practice" on my own terms.

I've enjoyed the playful banter here, but it's time to stop sticking fingers in each other's eyes. Have fun guys.

 

[tree MDS]

Does "Architect" count? Actually, while I feel like I am well compensated for my architectural work, I feel like my ability to pick and choose which tree jobs I do is even better. I don't "Super Trim" to lowball the honest tree guys. In fact, I send them PLENTY of work that I don't want to do. But... I get to climb and stay "in practice" on my own terms.

I've enjoyed the playful banter here, but it's time to stop sticking fingers in each other's eyes. Have fun guys.

Mild mannered architect Peter Brady by day, "SUPER TRIMMER" at night :greenchainsaw: