undermined tree(s)

[capetrees]

Are there pictures of the canopy or any lean to the trees in question? So the roots were cut and damaged. That doesn't mean its going to die. We did an excavating job 2 years ago and had to save a tree right next to a foundation hole 12 feet deep. The sandy soil created a slope out from the hole that undermined and exposed at least half of the root system of an old Chinese elm, 50 feet tall at least, mid winter. Poured the walls, backfilled and the re-dug along the roots for other pipes and drainage and come spring, the tree never looked better and is still strong and healthy.

 

[pdqdl]

Yeah, but that's for a "chinese" (I presume you really meant a Siberian) elm.

I have tried to KILL quite a few of those with a chainsaw, and they always come back, unless you bring the Tordon or a stump grinder. They are the number one favorite in KC for the tree toppers to butcher.

You don't really have any true Chinese elms in Massachusetts do you? I didn't think they would survive that far north.

 

[capetrees]

After looking up the information on a siberian versus a chinese elm, I have to say you are correct in that it is a siberian elm. The bark is very rough like the pictures of the siberian.

Anyway, my main point of the post was that maybe what we did to the root system "woke" the tree up and new roots have formed thus invigorating the growth. Maybe the same could happen in your situation.

 

[lxt]

Ok.... let me state the facts again:

1-severe compaction around the tree(s)
2-severing(more like ripped out) of roots upto the size of a human wrist
3-limb & upper trunk damage from machinery
4-poor soil conditions...rock/shale

the roots have been left exposed for a little over a month!!

I agree they may be able to be saved they`re young....however a root pruning, root aereation, crown pruning, mulching & an ongoing stewardship plan would need to be implemented, at least these are some of the things I would suggest to customers who would have me come out to their property & assess the situation.

This is costly & at best 50/50 as to if it will work....even at 70/30 if all the above steps were taken......would it be worth it?

whats the ratio like without doing anything, were getting rain, winds & strange January weather right now!! my concern is between now and spring you usually have the windiest, rain/snow, ice storm, erosion type weather circumstances!

without immediate action to prevent decline or an amalgamation of natural time of the year circumstances......what are the survival & health % for these trees?

I have approached & spoken with them in a civil & good faith manner......."right now they`re not worried!!"


LXT............

 

[pdqdl]

I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for your concerns: I suspect the trees will recover, but that would be for my experiences in the midwest. Perhaps someone else will chime in with other experiences.

In light of your concerns about smashing your house, and the owners apparent complete lack of concern, I would offer to cut them down to remove the liability. It doesn't look like a lot of work, and you might improve relations with your neighbor. Sometimes that is worth a lot.

Leave a tall stump, it will grow shoots in the spring, and then you can re-train the shoots into a better shade tree than you started with.

 

[murphy4trees]

I feel for ya..
I hate to be judgmental, but can't help it with the assenine behaviour of the neighbor as you described it..
And from what you have said... those trees are doomed... they will certainly not die immediately... probably look just fine for some years to come, even without treatment.. HOWEVER... the damage done to those roots is irreversible and it is just a matter of time before the decay spreads in a way that undermines the ability of the roots to hold the tree up... and when it goes, it most likely will go to the opposite side from the damage... meaning towards your property and house.... How many times have we all seen it in a big wind... the trees that go over at the base or lift the root plate always show some sign of decay in the roots... doesn't have to be much, but that decay is the difference between the trees that are left standing and the ones on the ground ( or the house)...

I think your main repsonsibilty is to protect yourself and your family and home, both from physical and financial harm... The neighbor has offered to allow you to remove the trees.. that offer may not stand... I would put them on the ground now, while the offer is good.. Make sure you and a witness talk to him about it again before you start and even get him to help or at least be there when you do the work if possible.. Hey if you can afford to do the whole job, then do it and eat it just for the sake of your family, and keeping the peace... If that would be too hard financially, then put them on the ground and walk away knowing your neighbor is going to hate you for a long time...

If you decide to go the other way and leave the trees make sure you write him a certified letter explaining the damage and the future threat and getting the recomendation of a certified arborist to either remove them now, or them inspected regularly...

Or you could just move! Putting some distyance between yourself and people like this is always a good idea..

In any case, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it... it is unfortunate waht happenned to those trees, but that can't be undone now... It is unlikely that any problem will come of it for another 4-5+ years.. Some other course of action might present itself in the mean time...

 

[treeseer]

Murph I agree that lxt is fine for years after a light crown reduction. but...

... the damage done to those roots is irreversible and it is just a matter of time before the decay spreads in a way that undermines the ability of the roots to hold the tree up... and when it goes, it most likely will go to the opposite side from the damage... meaning towards your property and house.... course of action might present itself in the mean time...

Hey Dan, ever hear of CODIT? The above sounds like a fearmongering rant from a removalist, but I know you better than that. I think odds of being reasonably stable in 10 years may be 90-10 if lxt stops whining and treats the trees. He benefits from them--that's his payment-- so why not do something more than worry, lxt?

 

[Metals406]

Isn't their a couple hundred dollars in firewood there? Offer to take them down for the right to salvage?

I know it's probably work you didn't want to do... But wouldn't selling the wood recoup some of your costs?

Just my 2¢

 

[murphy4trees]

Guy,
If you think those roots are going to compartmentalize decay after getting gashed by a bulldozer, so deep and so close to the trunk, You are smokin' crack! And of course I know you better than that..

Perhaps you'd like to help us all learn something here and site some articles online so we can read up on bulldozer disease....

Guess I AM going to have to get around to reading my "Abiotic disorders of landscape plants"... it's been on the shelf for 2-3 years now...

And my understanding is that roots do not compartmentalize nearly as well as limbs... that makes sense that the trees evolved to handle damage in the canopy from wind, ice, physical impact of other trees etc... while the roots faced disturbance from natural forces far less often...

I would think that root excavation, hopefully with air and a careful pruning of damaged sections with sharp tools for a clean cut would be in order if the trees were to be saved. What would you charge for that Guy? And would you then guarentee the safety of this man's home and family?

Let us know..
Thanks...

 

[capetrees]

Isn't their a couple hundred dollars in firewood there? Offer to take them down for the right to salvage?

I know it's probably work you didn't want to do... But wouldn't selling the wood recoup some of your costs?

Just my 2¢

I thought that too plus the neighbor might call you back at some other time do do some work for pay.

 

[lxt]

Guy, its not that im crying about it cause I dont want to do the work!!!

THERE NOT MY TREES they dont want me to do anything right now FREE or not! cause they are concerned more with working on the inside of their house!

Murph.....understands & thanks!, as I write this the rain & ice are headed in your direction! cant wait for those 25mph winds with that rain soaked ground!

I have put options on the table.....you have seen their house & where their at with it!.......do you really think they care about these trees?

My complaint is the lack of mitigating the hazard or curbing the effects of what has been done till they make up their mind!! by that time nature could have its way!


LXT............

 

[capetrees]

aren't neighbors great?

 

[lxt]

aren't neighbors great?

Indeed!! I thought about it after the onset of this fiasco; Id better bite the bullet & just remove them or atleast 1 of them!! & do a freebee!

I approach them with this & its:"well we have other work needing our atttention right now"......"maybe late spring or summer" this is after they topsoil & seed the yard by the way!!

Honestly guys....I really dont like these neighbors been problems since they moved in 1 1/2 years ago, they dont watch their kids & let em run the neighborhood 4yr old & 9.....they poked my female Rotty right above the eye with a stick, through my fence too boot!!! cost me $500 dollars for surgery! this was witnessed by 2 other neighbors who turned them in...Police came, promise to pay for vet bill, etc... never happened! cost more to make em pay than what the surgery cost!

so maybe im being a little over bearing in my worries & mean spirited!! but hey treat others as you would want treated, when I did my renovation..I sent thank you letters to the neighbors, invited them over for cook outs & BEER! Etc.. cause I appreciated their putting up with what I was doing!

these people drop trees on to the powerlines on purpose(utility was called) have ripped out others phone lines, burned garbage on sundays & I mean garbage!! their construction debris windblown through the neighborhood, etc..

Maybe Ill do a "ninja removal"..... M.D.Vaden would like that, LOL!!!


LXT..............

 

[Slvrmple72]

lxt, If the trees fall onto your house from being undermined what will the potential be for damage to your house and possible injury to your family? You may have to play hardball with these neighbors over this. What is more important, a tenuous relationship with a bad neighbor or the well-being of your family. Short term you can trim the crown to shift the load to their side and keep trimming them to head that way so when they do fail they just might fall on there property instead of yours. When they ask for help then you can give them an estimate! When they get beligerant you can show them the pictures from way back when they did the damage to the trees in the first place. Remember though that people always remember the "free" offers you give them so if you have promised or offered than you may be sol!
Better have that homeowners deductible handy! Good Luck!

 

[pdqdl]

Neighbors that bad, eh?

There is always the Ninja-style "blown over onto their house" approach: wait til they go out for the evening, then get something big enough to pull it over the wrong way. Some root pruning may be necessary on your side of the trees.

Give them a call on their cellular, indicating that their poor trees went and blew over onto their house. It might help to remind them that you warned them of the risk of blow-overs. Be sure to be a good neighbor and help them out before they make it back home by sawing up all the evidence...I mean...trees that fell onto their house.

OR: Do some deep root feeding on YOUR side of the tree with some sulfuric acid (battery acid). Rapid decomposition of roots is guaranteed, along with certain death before spring. It's a race to see which way the trees will flop!

 

[lxt]

Neighbors that bad, eh?

There is always the Ninja-style "blown over onto their house" approach: wait til they go out for the evening, then get something big enough to pull it over the wrong way. Some root pruning may be necessary on your side of the trees.

Give them a call on their cellular, indicating that their poor trees went and blew over onto their house. It might help to remind them that you warned them of the risk of blow-overs. Be sure to be a good neighbor and help them out before they make it back home by sawing up all the evidence...I mean...trees that fell onto their house.

OR: Do some deep root feeding on YOUR side of the tree with some sulfuric acid (battery acid). Rapid decomposition of roots is guaranteed, along with certain death before spring. It's a race to see which way the trees will flop!

Ha!...LMAO, thats funny.. I thought about doing that.....Nah, Im a firm believer that what you send out comes back 10 fold!

Yes, they are that bad as a matter of fact the guy across the way from me is moving because of them, tired of their kids and ignorance, we live in a secluded small neighborhood 7 houses on the block thats it! & untill them what a nice neighborhood

holiday time all the neighbors help each other out, cards in mailboxes, etc.. summer time cook outs every one kinda goes from house to house eats n beer! good people! then the grizwalds moved in!! ha

thanks guys for the input, Ill let ya know what happens when it happens, if anything I got to vent about them...


Take care be safe!

LXT..............

 

[treeseer]

Maybe Ill do a "ninja removal".....

Or a few ninja Arboricultural maneuvers...< 2 hours to prune the roots, and spread mulch--I bet you know someone who has free chips!. Easier than cutting--you do have tools besides saws, right? Loppers and pitchfork are essential equipment.

Wait'll they leave for the day, and.......SHEEYAH! repair the damage.

 

[murphy4trees]

Hey Guy,
Apparently Gilman has a much differrent perspective than yours....

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/Disturbing.html

Nothing you or any human being does to this tree will ensure that the tree is safe a decade or more down the road..

What are you thinking bro... It just makes you look bad... and brings into question all the other times you rightfully argue that a tree could or should be treated and saved...

You can't run a bull dozer right along the base of a mature maple and then spend 2 hours pruning roots and putting mulch down and say OK... everything is fine now... That is just irresponsible...

Yes there is a tendency in the industry to remove rather than treat viable trees that have a lot of value... And there are far too few people like you encouraging the rest of us to add diagnosis and treatment to our repretoire of services, and asking the slash and burn types to mend their ways..

That said, another big part of our duties as arborists is to remove dangerous tree. It is a responsibilty to the community to protect human beings and their infrastructure by identifying and removing potentially dangerous trees. How many trees have you treated rather than removed that ended up on someone's house? Over the years I've seen more than a few trees that I looked at and recommended against removal go down.. Every time that happens it changes my perspective...

And I try to learn something from every tree that goes down in the wind... I study them... I look at them until I see what caused the failure. and there is almost always some identifiable structural problem, (outside of hurrricanes)... And invaryiably the ones with lifted root plates will have some decay in the root system... And of course there is always decay in the base of any tree that fails at or near ground level.

So talk to me... Defend your position with some science... This touchy-feely love the tree up with some root pruning and mulch isn't working for me. I have 27 years of empiracal observation and Gilman's science that says you got this one wrong... What do you have?

 

[treeseer]

Hey Guy,
Apparently Gilman has a much differrent perspective than yours....

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/Disturbing.html

Apples and oranges--that paper is about trenching, not scraping. Then read p 183-4 of the abiotic book, which confirms gilman that trenching is way worse than scraping.

if you and i were inspecting it i know we would agree. no point arguing over crappy pix of trees owned by fools.

O and roots generally codit better than stems; shigo p. 403 and many more.

so who said "Guarantee" or "ensure"? Ptooey i say get those words out of my mouth!

 

[murphy4trees]

My bag Guy...
It wasn't a dozer... IT WAS AN EXCAVATOR............

removing "AT LEAST TWO FEET OF EARTH"

SOOOOOOOOOOOO.... how many feet do we have to get to before scraping turns into trenching?????????????

I grind stumps for a living and can promise you.... THERE ARE NO WOODY ROOTS DOWN PAST TWO FEET ( on that maple)....


I read pg 182-186 of "abiotic disorders" and it mentions nothing of a difference between trenching and scraping...... also I assume you are talking about "modern arboriculture" when you refer to shigo... My copy is MIA right now...

That said here is a quote from Gilman's website as per earlier link:

"Even cutting small (less than one-half inch) roots under or outside the edge of the canopy for long stretches can cut off water supply to the tree. This can cause the tree to decline or die during the next several years."

Now we've heard that there were many roots torn up that were over an inch and some as big as a his wrist... I would guess that is 2-2.5".... SO do we really need pics to say without question that there is no fixing that kind of damage. I DON'T... and from the pics it is clear that EXCAVATOR was right up on the base of that tree completely removing 30% or more of the woody roots of that tree....
AND furthermore it is clear that the tree is right next to this man's house, and will do significant damage should it end up falling on the house...

Guy I have to say... you're either not reading carefully or I AM feeling some worry for you.... Have you ever had a tree that you recommended a customer keep go down and do significant damage? That is a bad feeling... I've been there.

I regularly talk customers out of removing good trees... I've saved countless trees that way over the years and its a good feeling... That said... when I think a tree is dangerous... I AM a man on mission... with a CHAINSAW....

This tree is structuraly compromised and it will fail without question no matter what... The only question is WHEN?

SO that gets us back to the human variable... If you or me owned the tree we could cut it anytime ion the next 5-10 years and it would be fine to leave it for a while... BUT with this goofy neighbor, LX is better getting it down sooner than later..

Or maybe he should just move... Still what is the "right" thing to do... That tree has to go!

oh and another quick point... "Abiotic disorders" mentions that trees with thin bark are worse off than trees with thick bark, when it comes to root damage..
I'd put the maple in the former category

So the neighbor & family use the excavator to grade the yard...severely grade the yard undermining the tree(s) between his property & mine thus removing aleast 2ft of earth & severing the majority of the root system, ....