Tree Machine
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Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil?
- Thread starter rustyb
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The mist on the skidder might possibly have come from trees.rustyb said:Ben,
You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers.. So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?
Also, my last post must have been so long you didn't notice my question about taking a close look on your skidder for oil mist. Have you?
Thanks, I appreciate it.
rusty
John
If it is actually works better thats great. I think I will try some today.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Originally Posted by rustyb
<b>Ben,
You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers. . So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?</b>
Rusty, it's all cool. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences. Ben has a rich history around industrial apparati whose lubrication is improved by tacifying agents. Ben also sells petroleum based bar oil out of his saw shop, and profits from its distribution.
What we need to solve is how to help Ben Walker win in this. Fact: The price of crude oil is going nowhere, but up, and so will the price of petro bar. There is a dwindling fraction of us that still hold to the necessity of Tack.
OK, I see it clearly. Now, I've not crunched the numbers on this, but it just seems that you could buy a barrel of Canola at a gallon price far below that of a store-bought gallon. Someone find Ben a price.
I'm thinking somewhere around $2.75 a gallon, in bulk, add .25 of tackifier per gallon and sell the tackified Bio Bar for six. Your customers could come in and refill their own jug for 5.
That's numbers and business. I don't want to get hung up on the mechanism because we could come up with dozens of ways to make that work.
It's about the realization
The realization that it's entirely possible, within everybody's reach, to make a positive ecological change at no cost to you, no adapting anything, no preparation for adopting veggie, no extra added effort. Just pour it in and go about sawing as usual.
it's about the <i>emotional shift</i>, the mutual understanding amongst ourselves that our views and judgements and long-standing beliefs have been sorta messed up. Our assumptions that something was a certain way, and then we find out we been doing it wrong for a long time.....
It can be difficult for some to let go of that. Habits. Conventional thought. The way we've always done it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The US is an oil-dependent nation. It's just part of our industrial makeup to use things petroleum based.
Well, it's time to break free. Sweden has always used veggie oil. For the United States, the hurdle to cross was one of price, and we were not fully informed on the tack issue.
Well everybody, we've knocked those doors off their hinges. It's NOT more expensive, and you DON"T need tack.
<b>Ben,
You keep saying "have to" and I keep asking "why" but get no answers. . So why,...why do "they have to" add these things, particularly tac?</b>
Rusty, it's all cool. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences. Ben has a rich history around industrial apparati whose lubrication is improved by tacifying agents. Ben also sells petroleum based bar oil out of his saw shop, and profits from its distribution.
What we need to solve is how to help Ben Walker win in this. Fact: The price of crude oil is going nowhere, but up, and so will the price of petro bar. There is a dwindling fraction of us that still hold to the necessity of Tack.
OK, I see it clearly. Now, I've not crunched the numbers on this, but it just seems that you could buy a barrel of Canola at a gallon price far below that of a store-bought gallon. Someone find Ben a price.
I'm thinking somewhere around $2.75 a gallon, in bulk, add .25 of tackifier per gallon and sell the tackified Bio Bar for six. Your customers could come in and refill their own jug for 5.
That's numbers and business. I don't want to get hung up on the mechanism because we could come up with dozens of ways to make that work.
It's about the realization
The realization that it's entirely possible, within everybody's reach, to make a positive ecological change at no cost to you, no adapting anything, no preparation for adopting veggie, no extra added effort. Just pour it in and go about sawing as usual.
it's about the <i>emotional shift</i>, the mutual understanding amongst ourselves that our views and judgements and long-standing beliefs have been sorta messed up. Our assumptions that something was a certain way, and then we find out we been doing it wrong for a long time.....
It can be difficult for some to let go of that. Habits. Conventional thought. The way we've always done it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The US is an oil-dependent nation. It's just part of our industrial makeup to use things petroleum based.
Well, it's time to break free. Sweden has always used veggie oil. For the United States, the hurdle to cross was one of price, and we were not fully informed on the tack issue.
Well everybody, we've knocked those doors off their hinges. It's NOT more expensive, and you DON"T need tack.
i dont own a saw shop and I do not sell anythign other than fishing trips....
BTW as petrol prices rise so will vegatable oil. Have you nay idea of how much petrol it takes to make a gallon of vegi oil? Ill give you a hint. Its enough to make the mfg. of ethanol and bio diesel a losing proposition profit wise.
Blowdown1
ArboristSite Operative
On another note, the oxidation issue. I wonder if adding a little vitamin E oil would help solve that. E is a strong natural anti-oxidant, and I think I have even heard of using for something along the lines of this somewhere else. Or maybe I'm crazy.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well...it's been a while since I watched this thread. Interesting revelations
When I moved my shop last year I found that mice had chewed holes in the top of the plastic canola oil jug. they dove in and drowned. What a way to go. What would you want to drown in?
To salvage as much of the oil as possible I took a stick and pulled out the Mousketeers and pitched them into the woods. Maybe the fox will eat them...yummy, marinated...then I put the rest into jugs which were stored in a metal container. When Istarted to use the salvage oil I noticed a bad smell. Instead of popcorn it smelled "off" Must have been mousie.
So, store the extra oil in a metal container unless you want to loose it to the critters.
When I moved my shop last year I found that mice had chewed holes in the top of the plastic canola oil jug. they dove in and drowned. What a way to go. What would you want to drown in?
To salvage as much of the oil as possible I took a stick and pulled out the Mousketeers and pitched them into the woods. Maybe the fox will eat them...yummy, marinated...then I put the rest into jugs which were stored in a metal container. When Istarted to use the salvage oil I noticed a bad smell. Instead of popcorn it smelled "off" Must have been mousie.
So, store the extra oil in a metal container unless you want to loose it to the critters.
Tom, could it be the oil went rancid?
rubberducky
ArboristSite Operative
Hey who asked Tom Dunlap, the "HIPPIE." In a different thread you we just telling a guy not to cut down his trees, and if everyone cut down a tree becuase they didn't want it there there would'nt be any trees. Well you want to know what I think. I think you just go to "Arborsite" becuase you dont have anything to do.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
The first jug I used didn't get moused and didn't get rancid or bad smelling. I'm sure that the oil was fine as a lube. The smell got to be a bit much though.
Blowdown1 said:
It's been mentioned in another thread on this site, (credit to Tree Machine I think?), oxidation is probably just a problem if you use pure food oil, commercial veggie bar oil has biodegradable anti-oxidants added.
Different veggie oils oxidize in different ways of course, Canola/Rapeseed seems to be quite resistable, while linseed oil will oxidize in days if applied thinly to metal. This is why linseed is used in rust-protection products and paint, it oxidizes and becomes hard and clings to the surface like glue. It gives very good protection, especially if mixed with lead pigments. Lead pigmented paint needs special permits to be used these days I reckon.
I use linseed oil on tools. Old Bahco spanners and screwdrivers that spend all year round in a tractor looks looks great after I primed them with a thin layer of linseed oil (after a thorough cleaning). They aren't slippery either, as they can be from other oil. Wouldn't want to use it on the chain, but I'd consider using it on bars and parts of the saw made of steel. Boiled linseed oil dries&oxidize faster than raw linseed oil, but raw linseed oil penetrates better into the wood and probably sticks better to iron/steel.
Stumper
One Man Band
The oxidation issue is mostly a non-issue. On the PowerPruner where I have used Veggie (Both Canola and Soybean oils) for years I have some buildup of oil and dirt from spillage on the top of the tank. Inside the spocket cover it is oily but nothing has hardened-fresh oil acts as a solvent for old oil. On my climbing saw I have no hardened oil anywhere. As far as INSIDE the tank-think about it-the jug of cooking oil can stay in your kitchen cabinet fro months without oxidizing or turning rancid. It is a non-issue in a working saw.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks again, Stumper. Your personal field-work is showing exactly what mine is. Works inexplicably well.
Tom, you bring up the mouse issue. That's so <i>funny</i> ! I had that happen once in the last three Winters, the Winter before last. The little buggers went at the <i>bottom</i> of my jug. What's weird is, they went at the corners of empty 2-cycle bottles, the black Husqvarna ones. They really seemed to dig that. From what I can gather, they were really bored.
I learned something about veggie oil that day, is that if the oil is freeze-set, it won't <i>spontaneously</i> flow. This property of bio oil became a positive. None of my mouse-nibbled oil spilled. I'll have to dig out those pictures. That was awhile back.
MK brings up some issues of oxidation. It has come up as part of other responses too. I was planning to address this in a prior bio bar thread, but Tack stepped in and took center-stage.
There is a bunch of information we haven't even talked about, besides mice and oxidation, but oxidation is one that I was really looking forward to discussing, juicy stuff you guys can all appreciate.
I am so happy to have thread on track. With the naysayers quenched and the devil's advocates at bay. With the critics quieted and the occasional person who just argues for the sake of argument
keeping his trap shut, maybe,
just maybe
We can move on without further derailment.
Tom, you bring up the mouse issue. That's so <i>funny</i> ! I had that happen once in the last three Winters, the Winter before last. The little buggers went at the <i>bottom</i> of my jug. What's weird is, they went at the corners of empty 2-cycle bottles, the black Husqvarna ones. They really seemed to dig that. From what I can gather, they were really bored.
I learned something about veggie oil that day, is that if the oil is freeze-set, it won't <i>spontaneously</i> flow. This property of bio oil became a positive. None of my mouse-nibbled oil spilled. I'll have to dig out those pictures. That was awhile back.
MK brings up some issues of oxidation. It has come up as part of other responses too. I was planning to address this in a prior bio bar thread, but Tack stepped in and took center-stage.
There is a bunch of information we haven't even talked about, besides mice and oxidation, but oxidation is one that I was really looking forward to discussing, juicy stuff you guys can all appreciate.
I am so happy to have thread on track. With the naysayers quenched and the devil's advocates at bay. With the critics quieted and the occasional person who just argues for the sake of argument
keeping his trap shut, maybe,just maybe
We can move on without further derailment.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
So where should we go?
<b>Pick your direction:</b> oxidation, lipid chemistry, free radical reactions, oxidative kinetics, oil properties, trigycerides, saturation, unsaturartion, free fatty acids, glycerol. Biodiesel as bar lube. We could go triacyglycerol chain length, comparisons between different oil sources, why and how they're different from one another. We could do the freeze-thaw discussion thoroughly, which was where we left off in the prior thread. We could talk antioxidants, tocotrienols, good 'ol alpha-tocopherol, mixed tocopherols, international units, why and how oxidation is easily a non-issue. We could talk about uses for veggie oil in the field, that have nothing to do with your bar-oil tank. I'd like to know more about linseed oil. Then there's the whole ecology economic thing, sustainability, predictable pricing, commodity status, renewability, barrel pricing. Fellow tree huggers, we are <i>just getting started.....</i>
So, can we keep this thread, not about Tack?
<b>Pick your direction:</b> oxidation, lipid chemistry, free radical reactions, oxidative kinetics, oil properties, trigycerides, saturation, unsaturartion, free fatty acids, glycerol. Biodiesel as bar lube. We could go triacyglycerol chain length, comparisons between different oil sources, why and how they're different from one another. We could do the freeze-thaw discussion thoroughly, which was where we left off in the prior thread. We could talk antioxidants, tocotrienols, good 'ol alpha-tocopherol, mixed tocopherols, international units, why and how oxidation is easily a non-issue. We could talk about uses for veggie oil in the field, that have nothing to do with your bar-oil tank. I'd like to know more about linseed oil. Then there's the whole ecology economic thing, sustainability, predictable pricing, commodity status, renewability, barrel pricing. Fellow tree huggers, we are <i>just getting started.....</i>
So, can we keep this thread, not about Tack?
jimbo1490
ArboristSite Guru
Crude oil is no more rare than diamonds are rare. The reason either commodity is expensive is that they are both controlled by cartels which fix the price. Note that such cartels are strictly illegal here in the USA. The world has enough proven oil reserves to last for decades to come given both present use and projected growth in use. If we searched for more oil, we would certainly find it, extrapolating from past success. This fact bothers 'environmentalists' so that their current legal fights are to stop further exploration for oil, even though exploration causes no damage to the environment whatsoever.
The current driver in crude oil pricing is the increasing demand by countries and regions who were not big users in the past like China and India. They have basically consumed all the excess so that the world is chasing after the last barrel, like some game of musical chairs. But there is a whole pile of chairs sitting off in the background not put into service which could easily seat all present.
The people profiting most from all of this are the great oil brokers like World Fuels. Conglomerates like this are the actual owners of huge quantities of product, not the oil drilling/refining companies which get so much negative attention. Their job is to explore/recover/refine, not necessarily own.
The government makes far more money per unit on oil than any driller/refiner since the typical taxes are several times the total recovery/refining profit per unit.
If you would like to see a switch to non-petroleum bar oils for reasons of reduced environmental impact, that's fine and that's what you should focus on. But the 'We Are Running Out Of Oil!!!' misinformation is getting a bit old and so easily disproven that those espousing this tired line risk wasting their credibility.
Jimbo
jimbo1490
ArboristSite Guru
SO often these hidden energy costs are not considered by 'environmentalists' who seem content to merely scratch the surface of these debates; just deep enough to come up with some coercive public policy change which will solve everything. Look at the push for recycling as an example. You should watch the episode of "Penn & Teller's Bull$hit" on recycling for a good and humorous synopsis.
It's no different than the push for electric cars as "zero emissions" vehicles. What a joke! Where do they think the electricity for charging comes from?! Well golly, it has to be produced by generators, mostly diesel powered. And since batteries are a VERY lossy form of storage, far MORE current is required to charge a battery than you can ever get back in ampere/hours upon discharge. This means FAR MORE fuel gets burned per ton/mile than if an engine were located on the vehicle (what a concept!) driving the wheels directly. Don't forget to add the losses for generation and transmission as well. All you get from this scheme is a relocation of the emissions source.
Jimbo
The US, Canada and much of northern Europe have enough land to produce a lot more biofuel/oil. That would also reduce the need for foreign oil.
But yeah, there is no risk of fossile oil running out soon. The price is way higher than the production cost, meaning that there is actually room for producing liquid fossile fuel from coal/other fossile sources if needed. And coal we have in heaps.
Engines running on diesel or gas are quite inefficient, most of the energy is released as (wasted) heat. If diesel is used in central power plants to produce electricity and the surplus heat is used for warming houses, they are quite efficient. I live in a flat warmed by surplus heat from a plant where they use mainly household garbage for fuel. The plants can have advanced and efficient cleaning systems reducing in less pollution than from a small house oil burner.
Using diesel to produce electricity, heat and hydrogen (for vehicles) would be more efficient than todays internal combustion engines, small systems for heating houses, and also kinder to the environment. No, I don't expect hydrogen combustion chainsaws, that would be impractical I guess
Biofuel is high-tech, it's sexy, and it's here to stay
But yeah, there is no risk of fossile oil running out soon. The price is way higher than the production cost, meaning that there is actually room for producing liquid fossile fuel from coal/other fossile sources if needed. And coal we have in heaps.
Engines running on diesel or gas are quite inefficient, most of the energy is released as (wasted) heat. If diesel is used in central power plants to produce electricity and the surplus heat is used for warming houses, they are quite efficient. I live in a flat warmed by surplus heat from a plant where they use mainly household garbage for fuel. The plants can have advanced and efficient cleaning systems reducing in less pollution than from a small house oil burner.
Using diesel to produce electricity, heat and hydrogen (for vehicles) would be more efficient than todays internal combustion engines, small systems for heating houses, and also kinder to the environment. No, I don't expect hydrogen combustion chainsaws, that would be impractical I guess
Biofuel is high-tech, it's sexy, and it's here to stay
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Stumper
One Man Band
Excellent points Jimbo. I made the switch to veggie oil based on .....
1. Veggie should be tess toxic to the plants I work on and around-(No I don't have a specific study but it seems reasonably based upon biology).
2. Veggie probabbly is better for me when aspirated or ingested (it is food grade -bar oil isn't)
3. Veggie oil lubricates better!!!!!!!! (Yes there are studies in molecular bonding, coefficients of friction et al that prove this one. I also discovered it empirically)
4. It flows better through weak oiling systems. (Which is part of lubing better and why I tried it in small saws and eventually learned that #3 is really true and switched to using it in all saws.)
5. Veggie washes out of clothing more easily.
Hey Jim (TreeMachine), We could talk about all that stuff or we could just pour some in our tanks and go to work.
1. Veggie should be tess toxic to the plants I work on and around-(No I don't have a specific study but it seems reasonably based upon biology).
2. Veggie probabbly is better for me when aspirated or ingested (it is food grade -bar oil isn't)
3. Veggie oil lubricates better!!!!!!!! (Yes there are studies in molecular bonding, coefficients of friction et al that prove this one. I also discovered it empirically)
4. It flows better through weak oiling systems. (Which is part of lubing better and why I tried it in small saws and eventually learned that #3 is really true and switched to using it in all saws.)
5. Veggie washes out of clothing more easily.
Hey Jim (TreeMachine), We could talk about all that stuff or we could just pour some in our tanks and go to work.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Who'da thunk.... it could be sooo easy?
Stumper said:
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
For all the guys trying veggie oil in the bar lube tanks, I very much respect the shift. This is not to say I disrespect those using petro oil, not at all. You've hung with the bio oil threads and for whatever reason may not agree, but that's OK. One day you'll run totally out of bar and chain lube and there's gonna be a convenience store nearby. The important point is, you now know that straight veggie oil can be used.
Whether you choose Wesson or Pennzoil at that moment is up to you. The choice is ultimately yours, and honestly, it affects me not one bit. It's a plus for the environment, your laundry, and possibly your health. I respect that you've read the threads and have, at least, an open mind to using vegetable oil. As the price of petroleum oil, over the next few years, reaches $100 a barrel (and it will....), the days of $4/ gal bar lube are history. Why wait til then? The facts are in. Prove the facts, one direction or the other, for yourself. Buy 2 gal of veg. oil and when you've run that completely through your saws and you've personally assessed the performance, then you will have your own answer.
This is not a stretch at all. It's a shift. There are times in life when a shift can benefit you much. Many times making a shift involves work, or discomfort, or pain or stress or some cost of some kind. Not this time, though. This one's easy and painless and really involves no additional cost. It's just the use of a different liquid, one that is overall less toxic and somewhat less viscous.
For anyone who tries veggie oil for the first time this week, thanks for giving it a whirr. I think you'll sense a better overall <i>feeling</i> about your work environment. That's a double-plus.
Whether you choose Wesson or Pennzoil at that moment is up to you. The choice is ultimately yours, and honestly, it affects me not one bit. It's a plus for the environment, your laundry, and possibly your health. I respect that you've read the threads and have, at least, an open mind to using vegetable oil. As the price of petroleum oil, over the next few years, reaches $100 a barrel (and it will....), the days of $4/ gal bar lube are history. Why wait til then? The facts are in. Prove the facts, one direction or the other, for yourself. Buy 2 gal of veg. oil and when you've run that completely through your saws and you've personally assessed the performance, then you will have your own answer.
This is not a stretch at all. It's a shift. There are times in life when a shift can benefit you much. Many times making a shift involves work, or discomfort, or pain or stress or some cost of some kind. Not this time, though. This one's easy and painless and really involves no additional cost. It's just the use of a different liquid, one that is overall less toxic and somewhat less viscous.
For anyone who tries veggie oil for the first time this week, thanks for giving it a whirr. I think you'll sense a better overall <i>feeling</i> about your work environment. That's a double-plus.
