Water or oil for bar tip lube on CSM?

[golddredgergold]

I am working on my CSM a bunch and making great progress. I am going to be finishing it up over the next 2 weeks. I am gathering parts for the bar tip lube system now. I was reading around the net and read a fellow using water to lube the chain on the tip end. I did a search here and cannot seem to come up with any solid answers. He says the water works wonders. My plan was to just add an oiler and drill the bar to run bar oil to the tip like you see in the "trick and tips" thread here. Water seems easy and not such a mess but with that said I feel it may not be good enough for bar and chain life. Any tips here would be great for those that have "been there done that". Thanks!

 

[qbilder]

The fact that oil and water are incompatible, meaning they don't easily mix, is exactly why oil is such a fantastic lubrication for metal. Not only does it keep the metals separated at a microscopic level, but it repels water to protect the metal. Water on metal is bad news. Do NOT lube metal with water.

 

[Trx250r180]

i use reg bar oil in the saw ,and winter grade (thinner) oil for the aux oiler ,it flows through the gravity feed hose better

 

[golddredgergold]

This is exactly what I thought! I cannot see water working as a lube. Seems like a bad idea to be using the oiler in the saw for oil then water on the tip. Makes no sense. Here is a link if you guys have not already read this at some point. Scroll to the bottom to see the water luber setup.
TJ's Woodshop - Untitled


I am just going to stick to Bar Oil and thin if needed in the winter. I have a tank already and I will weld the brackets for it. I know water worked well on Band saw but seemed not so correct for chains saws.

Thanks for the help! Back to work! I will post pix of my mill soon as it is done!

 

[qbilder]

I know water worked well on Band saw but seemed not so correct for chains saws.

Yeah it's great for band blade lube, but band blades don't have links to lube & do not contact any other metal. The water acts as much as a cooler as it does lubing the cut.

I have heard of vegetable oil being good for aux. oiling & it makes sense. I use a lot of vegetable base oil in machining as cutting fluid for metal on metal, and beezwax for metal on wood. But for all intents and purposes in chainsaws, bar & chain oil is likely best. It could probably even be thinned with diesel to enhance flow if absolutely needed but I would imagine that would only be noticeably helpful on very long bars.

 

[sixteenacrewood]

I use canola oil as my bar lube in both the saw and the aux bar oiler.
I read a response in a post here years ago recomending it.

It has better lubricating qualities, flows in cold or hot weather, is cheaper by the gallon than bar and chain lube, and for an oil that sprays out on the ground, it does not polute.

I've been using it for a year and a half now. I have an alaskan with a 56" bar that gets used regularly.

cheaper, better lubricant, and non-toxic,

 

[qbilder]

I use canola oil as my bar lube in both the saw and the aux bar oiler.
I read a response in a post here years ago recomending it.

It has better lubricating qualities, flows in cold or hot weather, is cheaper by the gallon than bar and chain lube, and for an oil that sprays out on the ground, it does not polute.

I've been using it for a year and a half now. I have an alaskan with a 56" bar that gets used regularly.

cheaper, better lubricant, and non-toxic,

Sounds good. Will look into that. Thanks for the tip

 

[BobL]

I experimented with using water (a dribbling hose) at the auxiliary oil point on my CSMs while milling about 30 logs back in 2007.

There is a whole thread on it here. http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/54307.htm

There are many benefits (see above thread) but over about 3 months I noticed a little (not a lot) more wear and tear on the bar and chain. If cost of replacing B&C was less of an issue I would definitely continue to use water because the other benefits are worth it. Some Lucas mill slabbers use water routinely but they also use lower chain speeds so they probably have less of a problem with B&C wear.

Canola oil is an interesting oil. It has a slightly higher (~15% higher) specific heat than mineral oil so it can carry away 15% more heat from the B&C BUT is has a much lower tackiness than B&C oil so using it in the saw means that it will be flung off at the drive sprocket and then at the bar nose, before it even has a chance of getting to the cutting side of the bar. Delivering canola on the cutting side of in of the bar in auxiliary oilers is fine because it does not need to go around any sprockets to be effective. If canola alone is use in a saw it should really have tackifiers added to it. On a CSM using canola in both the saw and aux oiler is fine although the canola in the saw will be largely wasted as much of it won't get around to the cutting side of the bar.

All Aussie B&C oil prices are ridiculously high. Stihl branded oil costs ~$25 a gallon, a "No brand" oil from a supplier I can trust and that makes it tacky to my specification costs me $14 gallon and Canola oil costs me about $11 a gallon (on special from the supermarket). After I run out of my current canola supply I will probably stick to the No brand oil.

BTW olive oil has an even higher specific heat than Canola but have not be able to find it cheaper than about $20 a gallon.

 

[kpantherpro]

I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives

 

[BobL]

I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives

I though pine sol was a detergent ad I can understand it being used on a bandsaw blade but I'm not sure about chains. If it was a real old time miller they were probably using a low revving (<6000 rpm) in the cut. B&C wear rises exponentially with rpm so even a 25% increase in rpm can add significant wear so good lube is needed to protect B&C at higher revs.

 

[SDB777]

I was told about using pine sol and water in the auxiliary oiler from an old time miller, has to be real pine-sol not the generic stuff, it works really well and is alot cheaper than some of the other alternatives

For use on a 'bandsaw mill', this works very well...but on a chainsaw, don't think I'd do it.


I use pin-sol and water mix pretty much all the time(very little pin-sol), but it does need to be removed quickly from the timber your cutting to keep it from staining.






Scott (maybe he was talking bandmill) B

 

[kpantherpro]

it works for me for csm especailly on pitchy/ sappy woods with no staining, seems to keep everything alot cooler as well, just my experience

 

[Mike Van]

Two different uses that I see. Lube for a chainsaw bar/oil, is actually lubing something, bar guide rails, chain links, sprocket nose. I would not use water for this. On a bandmill the lube is to keep pitch or resin from from sticking to the blade, the blade should need no lube to saw logs. I saw dry on my bandmill [locust, oak, pine, whatever] 99% of the time. Hickory [pecan] has a resin in the bark that will coat my blades after only a few boards without some form of drip on the blade. Any type of water, detergent, or oil will keep it off. Not a lot needed.

 

[imagineero]

I have a hard time thinking that water by itself does much as a lubricant. As a coolant it works ok, but as a lubricant really not very well at all. Ever considered draining the oil out of your car and replacing it with water? I'm in the same country as BobL but on the other coast and we pay the same here too. I'm getting 20L (5gal) drums of stihl for $115, other brands (stein, husky etc) for $80~$90. $80 for 5 gal isn't too bad. Works out to be $16/gal or $4/L. I go through a 5 gal drum every month or so. I'd consider getting one of those big drums, but I've no dea where to buy it and transporting and storing it would be a pain. I don't think it would be a whole lot cheaper anyhow.

I see guys running all kinds of crap through their saws. Vege oil, used engine oil, gear oil, hydraulic oil, stuff out of diesels etc etc... most of it works ok, but not great and has shortcomings. Most of it stinks, and I imagine that most of it isn't great for the environment. Oil isn't really a huge cost/output I get from my saws so I don't sweat it so much.

Shaun

 

[Mike Van]

Only things I've seen water lube really well would be logs and stair treads - Took an awful flop on a wet stair once.........

 

[Hddnis]

There are bar oils that you mix with water to use, very pricey, but supposed to work better than plain bar oil. It is the additives that make it work, the oil goes into emulsion and then the additives attract it to the metal.


Mr. HE

 

[imagineero]

There are bar oils that you mix with water to use, very pricey, but supposed to work better than plain bar oil. It is the additives that make it work, the oil goes into emulsion and then the additives attract it to the metal.


Mr. HE

Got a link?

 

[Hddnis]

Got a link?

http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdf/Arborol_A107105-AB.pdf

This is the only stuff I know of available in the US to buy. I understand there are other brands available in the EU countries due to regulations, but I don't know the names.

I've made it myself using a water geling agent, dish soap, oil (both dino and veggy) and water. I have not used the Arborol stuff. I got the idea from a discussion of nature friendly bar oils on an arborist forum.

With the stuff I made I noticed the bar will run much cooler and if mixed up on the thinner side the oiler will empty one tank of oil to a tank of gas. It works really well for cutting stumps which is harder on chains, saws, and bars than milling. I've not used it for milling due to never getting around to it. The only reason I've stopped using it is the time factor of mixing it up a gallon at a time, I've got crews that will use more than that before lunch so it was a hassle to keep up. But it was cheap and bar wear was the same or less than standard bar oil, chain stretch seemed to be less and the saws were indeed cleaner, plus they smelled good.

All last winter I ran a 50/50 mix of regular bar oil and veggy oil, it is a little thinner and worked better than standard bar oil in the cold weather, very clingly and slick.

In a milling application I can't see adding water on the end of the bar being a problem. Unless you mill only bone dry wood there is a good amount of water being run over everything anyway, already mixed with acids in the wood. If anything adding water will dilute the nasty stuff from the wood being cut and help out the oil you are pumping into the chain and bar from the saw end.

Another thought is that diamond chainsaws use water to lubricate and cool the chain and bar while cutting concrete.

Well, that got long and rambling...




Mr. HE

 

[peacmar]

Not to hijack but I'm currently up against this dilemma myself and after a few tries with water in the auxiliary oil tank am convinced it is beneficial enough to forget about the B&C wear that could possibly happen. I'm milling primarily white oak and hickory in the woods that has been down and air drying for at least a year or more. My rig is constantly growing and evolving so I'm always looking for ways to better it. I have an extensive background in CNC machining and am myself considering using water based cutting fluid instead of oil but have yet to test it. I figure if a piece of tool steel cutting through nickel can survive with the stuff why can't a chain? There are water soluble organic oils out there that sustain lubrication under extreme pressure and high speeds while cooling, my though is that as long as it doesn't stain the wood it should work beautifully. Again, yet to try it out, but I'm very optimistic. And will most certainly post about it when I do get around to it. We have had a stretch of wet weather in the Midwest lately and I have to cross a flooded marsh to get to my logs so it may be some time before I mill again.

 

[BobL]

Not to hijack but I'm currently up against this dilemma myself and after a few tries with water in the auxiliary oil tank am convinced it is beneficial enough to forget about the B&C wear that could possibly happen.

The primary idea behind an Aux oiler is to reduce B&C wear and to a lesser extent take some load off the powerhead. I have a temp gauge on my powerhead and found that water lube did not reduce the powerhead temp any more and maybe less than oil. The only benefit I found was that I could touch the B&C sooner and yes it does keep the chain cleaner but so does using enough aux oil.

I have milled some 30 Aussie hardwood logs (most would be harder when green than Hickory is dry, as well as being very gummy) using water cooling in place of Aux oil and found the B&C wear was a clear problem. I also tried hooking up a running hose to the aux oiler point so I could use larger amounts of water and it made no difference - if anything it was worse.

The analogy with the tool steel cutting is not valid as tool steel does not constantly slam up and down against a workpiece like a chain does on a bar. Most people don't realize that only about every 3rd cutter on a chain takes a significant bite into the wood and this lifts a short segment of chain up off the bar. The biting cutter rocks it's way further into the wood until the tension on the chain builds up so much the leading cutter tears out the chip and the chain slams back down onto the bar. Water cannot sustain these sorts of pressures and is quickly squeezed out between the B&C dragging any regular bar oil with it.