What The Heck?

[redprospector]

I started to post this in the descriptive process, but I decided that it deserves a thread of it's own.
I was on the phone today with one of our state foresters, and he gave me some news that I found disturbing.
This is a long drawn out story, so I'll condense it for you.
According to what the state forester told me; Our county commisioners have evidently decided that they are going into the forest thinning business. They are going to be using county inmates for labor, and since there is very little market for saw logs, and virtually no market for small diameter timber, they have decided to buy the property & equipment from a defunked shavings mill and convert it into a pellet mill. They will (according to the forester) be using inmates for labor there too.

Now for my part. Over the last 18 months, I have been working at purchasing a piece of property, and equipment to put together a small pellet mill and pole peeling operation. My thoughts were while starting out I could at least have a place to go with my logs and poles. Then if things worked out maybe I could give others a market for their small diameter stuff. I've already got a pretty large investment in this little venture.

I'm going to call my county commissioner (it will probably be Monday before I can get ahold of him) and find out the skinny on this. But if it's true there is no way that I can compete with the government using inmate labor.
Have any of you seen anything similar to this?
What are your thought's on it?

Andy

 

[slowp]

Yes. We were delighted to have an inmate crew cooking on a fire. Because their labor was cheap, they spent more on food than the usual caterer. One mornng we woke up to find out that the inmate crew was gone and the usual caterer was back. They filed a complaint and apparently it was not kosher to use govt. labor when private companies were available. I can't remember whether it was a federal or state law, I think the fire was on Forest Service land, so probably federal.

Sounds like you have a valid grievance. But I have seen a recycler, who was making it, run out of town for some reason by a mayor, who then had the town take over, and later the county had to take over the recycling. Madness.

Where does the profit go if the county runs it? Back into the county budget?

Maybe you need to run for office?

 

[redprospector]

Yes. We were delighted to have an inmate crew cooking on a fire. Because their labor was cheap, they spent more on food than the usual caterer. One mornng we woke up to find out that the inmate crew was gone and the usual caterer was back. They filed a complaint and apparently it was not kosher to use govt. labor when private companies were available. I can't remember whether it was a federal or state law, I think the fire was on Forest Service land, so probably federal.

Sounds like you have a valid grievance. But I have seen a recycler, who was making it, run out of town for some reason by a mayor, who then had the town take over, and later the county had to take over the recycling. Madness.

Where does the profit go if the county runs it? Back into the county budget?

Maybe you need to run for office?

I don't know where the profit will go. Maybe I'll find that out when I talk to the commisioner.

As far as running for office...I already hold a position in our city government. :msp_sad:

If they mess with me I'll sell all my equipment to the county and run for Governor.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

I don't know where the profit will go. Maybe I'll find that out when I talk to the commisioner.

As far as running for office...I already hold a position in our city government. :msp_sad:

If they mess with me I'll sell all my equipment to the county and run for Governor.

Andy

Send me an absentee ballot and I'll vote for you.

I like Slowps thought about the conflict between using inmate labor and how it impacts an existing business.

Can't help you much beyond that but if there is anything I can do, let me know.

 

[northmanlogging]

buddy of mine works with inmates at our local fair grounds, the cons get to clean the poopers and what not, but it still takes a handfull of very well paid guards to keep an eye on em at all times, so there is some debate as to whether its better to just pay some kids really well or pay a whole bunch of guards, to do the same job.

DNR has the same problem with inmates for cleaning up garbage dumps, (this is kinda hearsay...) to have the inmates clean in the woods dnr has to pay for two or more guards hazard pay and a fee for each inmates used as well as transportation, meanwhile they can't even keep locks on the gates they have to keep people from dumping garbage...

Not to mention each inmate gets a little kickback for working, granted much of this gets paid out in retribution, but still, there getting paid when they really shouldn't be getting much more then a lousy meal, and a luke warm bed, but thats my opinion

 

[slowp]

There was a county inmate crew brushing out a P-Line. I talked to one of the guards. He said they didn't get much work done and the main purpose of such work was for them to learn to work and get along with other people. In fact, production was not the main goal for them.

Some looked old and frail but I was told that meth does that to people--they weren't that old.

I was glad to have an easier way to walk in and out, except they didn't have big enough saws to cut the 6 foot diameter blowdowns. I still had to clamber over a half dozen of those.

 

[redprospector]

Send me an absentee ballot and I'll vote for you.

I like Slowps thought about the conflict between using inmate labor and how it impacts an existing business.

Can't help you much beyond that but if there is anything I can do, let me know.

Thanks,
I guess they figured that I don't have to deal with the government enough in this line of work.

I thought the government was supposed to be helping to make the unemployment rate better, not taking jobs from people that aren't incarserated, and giving them to those who are.
Hey! Maybe I could get a job. I could be one of the "bosses". You know, with the mirrored sunglasses and a shotgun shouting orders. Only difference from what I've been doing would be the sunglasses and shotgun.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

buddy of mine works with inmates at our local fair grounds, the cons get to clean the poopers and what not, but it still takes a handfull of very well paid guards to keep an eye on em at all times, so there is some debate as to whether its better to just pay some kids really well or pay a whole bunch of guards, to do the same job.

DNR has the same problem with inmates for cleaning up garbage dumps, (this is kinda hearsay...) to have the inmates clean in the woods dnr has to pay for two or more guards hazard pay and a fee for each inmates used as well as transportation, meanwhile they can't even keep locks on the gates they have to keep people from dumping garbage...

Not to mention each inmate gets a little kickback for working, granted much of this gets paid out in retribution, but still, there getting paid when they really shouldn't be getting much more then a lousy meal, and a luke warm bed, but thats my opinion

I think it's a good thing for the inmates to work, cleaning county or municipal fairgrounds is a good example.
I don't think it's a good thing for the government to use these inmates to put legitimate businesses who are struggling to eek out a profit out of business.

Andy

 

[Gologit]

Thanks,
I guess they figured that I don't have to deal with the government enough in this line of work.

I thought the government was supposed to be helping to make the unemployment rate better, not taking jobs from people that aren't incarserated, and giving them to those who are.
Hey! Maybe I could get a job. I could be one of the "bosses". You know, with the mirrored sunglasses and a shotgun shouting orders. Only difference from what I've been doing would be the sunglasses and shotgun.

Andy

You'd probably have to develop a southern accent and the shades have to be those mirrored aviator types. No smiling either.

Seriously though, it's a thought. Especially if you qualify as a displaced business. You might also be eligible for retraining at government cost.

I'm just thinking out loud here...I really don't know much about that kind of situation. Except for the fact that I'd be pissed off.

 

[redprospector]

There was a county inmate crew brushing out a P-Line. I talked to one of the guards. He said they didn't get much work done and the main purpose of such work was for them to learn to work and get along with other people. In fact, production was not the main goal for them.

Some looked old and frail but I was told that meth does that to people--they weren't that old.

I was glad to have an easier way to walk in and out, except they didn't have big enough saws to cut the 6 foot diameter blowdowns. I still had to clamber over a half dozen of those.

I was offered to use some of the "good" prisoners on a work release once. I would have been able to pay the jail less than minimum wage for their service (the rest was counted for community service or some such). After seeing some of the inmates, and finding that I didn't get to choose which one's I wanted, and never knowing which one's they would pick for me. I opted to hire local (semi) law abiding citizens at the going rate.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

You'd probably have to develop a southern accent and the shades have to be those mirrored aviator types. No smiling either.

Seriously though, it's a thought. Especially if you qualify as a displaced business. You might also be eligible for retraining at government cost.

I'm just thinking out loud here...I really don't know much about that kind of situation. Except for the fact that I'd be pissed off.

I've been told that it's better to be pissed off than pissed on.... Right now I'm feeling both.
I've already got the southern accent down pretty good. I was born in Lynnwood CA, and raised to the tender age of 18 in north central, and east Texas. :msp_scared: If you think Forestryworks has an accent...you ain't heard nothing yet. And if this is what's going down...I won't have anything to smile about.
If I do get government retraining....I think I want to be an astronaut this time around. :bang:

Andy

 

[Jacob J.]

I think it's a good thing for the inmates to work, cleaning county or municipal fairgrounds is a good example.
I don't think it's a good thing for the government to use these inmates to put legitimate businesses who are struggling to eek out a profit out of business.

Andy

I don't know about New Mexico, but here in Oregon we have a kind of "non compete" ordinance that keeps county and state governments from using inmate or community service labor in a function that directly competes with commercial private industry.

If they did set-up something like that, I'm guessing it would have to be under the guise of "vocational training" for the inmates or vocational rehabilitation.

 

[northmanlogging]

What we got here is a, a, a failure to, to comunicate,

Now I don't like this any more then you men,

but some men they just don't think

So ya get what we had here last week,

Which is the way he wants it, well he gets it....


Seriously though I'm all for convict labor, but put em on farms that feed the prison, something that effects their lives directly so they can see the connection, (blah blah yakkity smackity...) but building a bloody factory and putting other businesses out of work for profit that's kinda messed up, Also has the distinct smell of slave labor.

 

[blades]

Well if ya want to call it slave labor, fine, just remember the cost to the taxpayers per incarcerated individual is $40k per year minimum.

 

[blades]

To the Op, only thing I see here is if you are not already up and running, then at this point it is not a situation of putting you out of that portion of your business. Best to hire out to them as a permanent consultant at a six figure salary of course ( no sense not taking a page from their own book). As a consultant you would not be responsible for any make or break figures, wink wink.

 

[Samlock]

Over here the local prison produces wooden products - log houses, furniture and such. The prison has ever competed anyone out of business. They have their own budget and must price their products accordingly. They don't pay much to inmates, but overall keeping a person behind the bars is indeed not cheap. Looking through their Tytoiminnan tuotteet - Rikosseuraamuslaitosprice list it seems the prisoner labor costs as much as free one. In fact the prison while ago closed their metal shop, because they couldn't keep up with market anymore. Thus, I think it makes a huge difference where the profit will go.

I'm just guessing here, but Andy, as a taxpayer, aren't you entitled to ask specific questions about the business plans of a public institution?

 

[northmanlogging]

Well if ya want to call it slave labor, fine, just remember the cost to the taxpayers per incarcerated individual is $40k per year minimum.

From my limited understanding it costs considerably more than that, but then criminals eat better than I do, and they get cable tv, Hel I've stayed in Motels with less perks then most of em get. So if you ask me its not a matter of making money for the prisons to stay open and reduce state debt, but more a matter of how much comfort that inmates get... sure fine get three meals and a cot, but they don't have to be hot meals and they don't have to be real tasty either... its supposed to be a punishment, make it a punishment...

Now as far as slave labor, lets take a look at your job could it be done with indentured servants? say I have a crew of 40 "workers" that only get minimal housing, and two meals a day, do you think your going to stay competitive... plus my crew can work as long as I want em to, because they have no rights and don't get paid overtime. Hel they don't even get paid. Ya wanna try and compete against that labor pool?

 

[2dumb4words]

As much as I despise attorneys, it sounds like you need an expert. Hope this works out to your advantage. Doesn't sound good.

 

[redprospector]

To the Op, only thing I see here is if you are not already up and running, then at this point it is not a situation of putting you out of that portion of your business. Best to hire out to them as a permanent consultant at a six figure salary of course ( no sense not taking a page from their own book). As a consultant you would not be responsible for any make or break figures, wink wink.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the property, pole peeler, 150 kw generator, and all the other stuff I've invested in. :msp_rolleyes:
Actually I think you're full of crap. I think that you have this opinion because you either have no experience, or haven't put any kind of pencil to it, but probably because you work for someone else and have accepted your lot in life. I should not have to compete against the government in "free enterprise". Period.
If I wanted to get a check from the government for doing nothing, I'd already be on welfare (oh crap, it's income support now) and food stamps. :msp_angry:

Andy

 

[redprospector]

As much as I despise attorneys, it sounds like you need an expert. Hope this works out to your advantage. Doesn't sound good.

I figure that attorney's should always be the last resort (unlike most people now days). I'm a strong advocate of being a man, and talking to the offender face to face before spending a lot of money on a lawyer.

Andy