What to do about persistent poachers?

[lone wolf]

I agree with you in theory, but....

Not sure about other states, but I tried the trespassing route. There is a list of excuses a mile long as far as why they were on your property. Getting "lost" is the most popular excuse among them.

In NJ:
"A person commits defiant trespassing when he or she enters a place despite having been given notice to stay off the premises. This notice can be given in the form of an actual communication by an angry property owner or it can be communicated through a “PRIVATE PROPERTY” sign. Defiant trespassing is a petty disorderly persons offense, and a conviction could expose the offender to 30 days in jail and a fine of $1,000.00."

Notice the wording in the line that explains the penalty. "could" means you stand a snowball's chance in hell. The easiest out for the trespasser is that they didn't see the signs. There are specs as far as size of signs, height posted, distance apart and age of signs. Signs can be a year or less old. Be off on any one of the specs and the person walks. There goes your cost of a lawyer and your time.

Cost them money. That hits home fast and is remembered a LONG time. Having to shell out 2-3 hundred dollars stings, no matter how much money you make.

Catch them once then what would they have for defense if caught again?

 

[Joisey]

Catch them once then what would they have for defense if caught again?

Just like the first time, they got lost or didn't see the signs. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it is a hollow law with no teeth. The odds are in the trespassers favor as far as getting off because of excuses I listed. Now you, the property owner are out the money for a lawyer and your time. Multiply that by a few or half dozen trespassers per year and you are soon broke.

Give it a try and see how it works for you. It never worked for me. The law SHOULD work, but it doesn't.

 

[lone wolf]

Just like the first time, they got lost or didn't see the signs. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it is a hollow law with no teeth. The odds are in the trespassers favor as far as getting off because of excuses I listed. Now you, the property owner are out the money for a lawyer and your time. Multiply that by a few or half dozen trespassers per year and you are soon broke.

Give it a try and see how it works for you. It never worked for me. The law SHOULD work, but it doesn't.

Maybe their truck will break down!

 

[Jed1124]

Any of you guys ever watch North Woods Law or any of the other game warden law enforcement shows on tv or the web? I know, the shows are mostly bs, but if there is any truth to any of it at all, these game wardens live for this stuff.
All decked out in camo waiting for someone to slip up then they rush in and pinch em.

I just don't see why a landowner should take any of this into their own hands. Sounds like a recipe for disaster along with getting locked up yourself.

 

[pdqdl]

I'm on it with the drone. Can be written off as a farm expense anyway and Ill order it first of the year. And the FLIR. I have 10 months to come up with a strategy, and/or be practiced on using that thing.

Wow! A man of action. I hope my suggestion works out well for you.

Kindly let us know how it all works out. I am rather interested in what model of equipment you will be using.

 

[Joisey]

Maybe their truck will break down!

I had contacted my attorney when this first started happening, thinking that perhaps I was being a bit harsh on the trespassers/trash dumpers. He told me that a person that is injured on your property, even if uninvited, can, and will collect at least some money for their injuries from your homeowners insurance.

 

[Joisey]

Any of you guys ever watch North Woods Law or any of the other game warden law enforcement shows on tv or the web? I know, the shows are mostly bs, but if there is any truth to any of it at all, these game wardens live for this stuff.
All decked out in camo waiting for someone to slip up then they rush in and pinch em.

I just don't see why a landowner should take any of this into their own hands. Sounds like a recipe for disaster along with getting locked up yourself.

In the section of Jersey that I live, the game warden is one of the "good old boys" and will do little or nothing unless backed into a corner. He'll try to make you feel guilty for wanting to press charges.

 

[pdqdl]

Carefully collect the cans/bottles get LE to dust it for prints. Chances are they've been printed sometime. take pictures to document where and when you found them. If if they are not on record it will make a stronger case when you do catch them and they get printed. For that matter you could also print any stands you find.

Also if you want to screw with them, go to a fast food place and get a few buckets of fryalator fat. Dump that around the stand, won't attract deer but will predators squirrels, and noisy crows

Naw. Skip the fingerprints. Go for the DNA!

Every hunter I know that is out drinking beer is also pissing in the bush. A cheap fluorescent flashlight will find those locations in the dark, too.

Of course, the only way that works to prove the violations and get convictions is if Law Enforcement is doing the collection. Chain of custody, etc. I think you need to contact the game wardens and county sheriff to see who is willing to help. Has that been done yet? I haven't read the whole thread.

If the law enforcement doesn't seem to willing to help, maybe you need to mention the problem to a friendly politician in the local government. Perhaps your lawyer knows exactly who to talk to. Sometimes that can have a huge beneficial effect, especially when it is being done for a significant property-tax paying citizen.

 

[Joisey]

Naw. Skip the fingerprints. Go for the DNA!

Every hunter I know that is out drinking beer is also pissing in the bush. A cheap fluorescent flashlight will find those locations in the dark, too.

Of course, the only way that works to prove the violations and get convictions is if Law Enforcement is doing the collection. Chain of custody, etc. I think you need to contact the game wardens and county sheriff to see who is willing to help. Has that been done yet? I haven't read the whole thread.

If the law enforcement doesn't seem to willing to help, maybe you need to mention the problem to a friendly politician in the local government. Perhaps your lawyer knows exactly who to talk to. Sometimes that can have a huge beneficial effect, especially when it is being done for a significant property-tax paying citizen.

DNA tests are expensive.

 

[pdqdl]

I have put up with poachers/trespassers, wood thieves, and people who dump their trash on my properties.

When I was a teen, I'd ask the trespassers to leave. Most did without trouble. Hunters would ignore, tear down or blow my no trespassing private property signs off of the trees they were posted on. Way back then it was required that your property be posted to keep hunters out. Now the hunter must have signed permission from the land owner in their possession. The permission is good for one day. While this sounds like a solution to hunters trespassing, it has literally done nothing.

The best solution for hunters trespassing is to call a tow company and have their vehicle towed from my property. This costs them a minimum of $300, plus any storage fee. Word gets around fast, and suddenly people that have "hunted this land their whole life" find elsewhere to hunt. Ditto for hunters that tell me that they own the land or are caretakers of the land.

One guy, a retired state cop posted hundreds of acres, like 400 or 500 acres, with his name, and told people that he was the designated caretaker of the property. Did this for the past 25 or more years. He wasn't, and now spotlighting deer at night has stopped completely.

One particularly crafty hunter drove to the middle of my one plot of land and cut saplings to cover his truck. MY saplings. I thoughtfully removed all of the lug nuts on his truck wheels. He started the truck at the end of the day of hunting and made it all of 10 feet before the first rim fell off. The other three soon followed. That cost him $1200 to get lifted up, new lug nuts installed and to be towed out.

A few years ago I wake up to find 4 pickup trucks in my back yard. Being deer season, I call the tow company. The truck shows up, tows two trucks and is hooking up the third when the "hunters" come out of the woods. Upset by their vehicles being towed, they call the game warden and the police. The police show up first, I explain what I did and what they did. One guy gets very upset and says he has written permission from the land owner to hunt there, and I am not the land owner.

The cop asks to see the permission. The hunter reaches in his pocket, pulls out a handkerchief, which he drops. When the hunter picks up the handkerchief, a baggie with about a half ounce of pot falls out. The hunter is arrested. While the cop is writing up the paperwork, the game warden arrives. He is given the "we have permission from the land owner to hunt here" line. He asks to see the permission, which no one has. He asks the name of the land owner, and is given a name I've never heard. I show the cop and game warden my property tax bill and my drivers license, proving my ownership.

The game warden asks if everyone's shotgun is empty. The answer is a resounding 'no'. He tells everyone to empty their weapons, and they do so. 5 or 6 shells are shucked on the ground in front of each hunter. Automatic fine, limit is 3 rounds for deer season. Everyone gets a fine for over capacity and a fine for hunting on private property without permission. They may have lost their hunting license for a year or more for hunting private property without permission.

When people dump trash, I rifle thru the trash until I find a utility bill or something with a name and address on it. I call the person and tell them that I want them to remove the trash from my property. No one ever knows how the trash got there, because THEY didn't put it there.

A call to the EPA solves the problem. The EPA cleans up the mess and sends the owner of the trash the bill. I believe the average cost of cleanup is around $200 to $300. One unfortunate soul was hit with a bill in the thousands. I had him on a game camera dumping the trash, draining his oil from his truck on the ground and then giving the camera the finger. Evidently it is fun to do an oil change on your vehicle in the middle of the woods with no drain pan. The EPA went insane when they saw the tape.

Wood thieves are a breed of their own. "You're not using the wood, it's standing dead wood anyway." I guess standing dead trees a few hundred yards off of the nearest road is instantly visible to anyone with a chainsaw. I used to throw them off the property and have them dump the wood already in their truck next to my house, but I found calling the state police and reporting a theft in progress gets better results.

Now, after 50 years my trouble with poachers, trespassers, wood thieves and trash dumpers is near zero. But I'm known as the grouchy bastard. Go figure.

Where do you call to get any agent interested in prosecuting trash dumping? Around here (Kansas City, Mo), there is ZERO enforcement. I have caught 'em several times, and the cops can't even figure out how to write a ticket. Seriously!

 

[Joisey]

Where do you call to get any agent interested in prosecuting trash dumping? Around here (Kansas City, Mo), there is ZERO enforcement. I have caught 'em several times, and the cops can't even figure out how to write a ticket. Seriously!

Look up the number for the local EPA (environmental protection agency) Not being a smart ass, some people are not familiar with the abbreviation. Look thru the trash for letters/bills with names and addresses on them. Take pictures of the dumping and of the letters. If the EPA seems reluctant, tell them you smelled used motor oil and you think it was coming from under the trash pile. That will get them off their ass fast. Hey, you COULD have smelled used motor oil. Everyone makes a mistake.

My heart goes out to you. It's aggrevating for you and costly, both in time and money. Best of luck.

 

[pdqdl]

DNA tests are expensive.

Yes, but getting cheaper all the time.

We had a burglar arrested and put in jail for two years. Cut his finger on the broken glass and left some blood drops. It took 4 years to proceed with arrest and conviction, but they knew who it was in just a week or two. NOTHING else was of any use in the conviction. We had video of everything, and the cops didn't even ask for a copy.

Only my persistence in chasing the case got the cops to make an arrest. Once the arrest was made, it flowed smoothly to jail time. I didn't even get called to court, nor named as a victim with any loss to be compensated for.
Still... I'm happy with just the jail time.

 

[Joisey]

Yes, but getting cheaper all the time.

We had a burglar arrested and put in jail for two years. Cut his finger on the broken glass and left some blood drops. It took 4 years to proceed with arrest and conviction, but they knew who it was in just a week or two. NOTHING else was of any use in the conviction. We had video of everything, and the cops didn't even ask for a copy.

Only my persistence in chasing the case got the cops to make an arrest. Once the arrest was made, it flowed smoothly to jail time. I didn't even get called to court, nor named as a victim with any loss to be compensated for.
Still... I'm happy with just the jail time.

My comment on the cost is because most jurisdictions are reluctant to do a DNA test for anything but murder or severe injury because of cost. Gotta keep the Narcan flowing for the junkies.

 

[Jed1124]

In the section of Jersey that I live, the game warden is one of the "good old boys" and will do little or nothing unless backed into a corner. He'll try to make you feel guilty for wanting to press charges.

I grew up in Jersey, what area are you from?

In CT, the game wardens live for this type of stuff and they will be happy to pinch you even if you are a friend.

 

[Joisey]

I grew up in Jersey, what area are you from?

In CT, the game wardens live for this type of stuff and they will be happy to pinch you even if you are a friend.

Born in Teaneck NJ, grew up in Hackensack NJ, living in Mays Landing NJ for a short while. Bought a house and property in WV. Tired of the crap in NJ.

That is how the NJ game wardens were in the sixties here. Not any longer. I had a guy parked on my property hunting. I called the tow company, but they were busy for a few hours, so I called the state police (which took care of that area). Gave them the tag number and vehicle description. The state cop called the game warden who drove to where the guys tree stand was (on my property) and told him that the property owner (me) was pissed about him trespassing and hunting on his property.

20 minutes later the hunter comes stomping up to his vehicle, yelling that I cost him a prize buck, and I'm not using the land, so I should let other use it.

I asked him if he was married, and he replied yes. I then told him that he wasn't using his wife at this time, so perhaps I should.

Later that day I cut his tree stand down (on my property) and cut the aluminum stand up in tiny pieces and piled them neatly at the base of the tree with one of my 'no trespassing signs' in front of it.

Never saw him again. If it's on my property, it's mine.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with people searching for lost dogs, and sometimes kids that wander on my property. Helped quite a few over the years find their kid or dog in some nasty weather. I was always profusely thanked for my efforts, and taken out to dinner a few times for my efforts. Dogs and kids wander. I would expect the same from my neighbors if it happened to me.

 

[Kdawg]

I agree with you in theory, but....

Not sure about other states, but I tried the trespassing route. There is a list of excuses a mile long as far as why they were on your property. Getting "lost" is the most popular excuse among them.

In NJ:
"A person commits defiant trespassing when he or she enters a place despite having been given notice to stay off the premises. This notice can be given in the form of an actual communication by an angry property owner or it can be communicated through a “PRIVATE PROPERTY” sign. Defiant trespassing is a petty disorderly persons offense, and a conviction could expose the offender to 30 days in jail and a fine of $1,000.00."

Notice the wording in the line that explains the penalty. "could" means you stand a snowball's chance in hell. The easiest out for the trespasser is that they didn't see the signs. There are specs as far as size of signs, height posted, distance apart and age of signs. Signs can be a year or less old. Be off on any one of the specs and the person walks. There goes your cost of a lawyer and your time.

Cost them money. That hits home fast and is remembered a LONG time. Having to shell out 2-3 hundred dollars stings, no matter how much money you make.

Joisey, I agree with you too. Landowners should get the benefit of the doubt and have the right to press charges (essentially force a prosecutor to move the case through) but in my experience the law enforcement start making excuses for the trespasser because they don't want to bring the case. Or perhaps the case log of "minor infractions" is so long that they are often dismissed, reduced, changed to a lesser charge to remove the case from the docket (court schedule)

What ends up happening (in my situation for example) is that the usual suspects know how to act and what to say to get off with a warning or small fine at worst. Way cheaper than leasing the land to hunt legally, and free if you don't get caught.

The teeth really live in taking them to civil court with evidence that law enforcement would not act on. You sue them of damages; that can not be an arbitrary sum, but rather the money lost by their actions. (reducing the value of a hunting lease for example or the cost of the whole hunting lease per incident per person as in some states is permissible) It is expensive for the landowner if you hire a lawyer ($10k minimum retainer and realistic costs $20-25k to bring a suit for a few thousand in damages... then you still have to collect (don't get me started on that) Due to the "American Rule" each side must pay their own legal fees except for where laws against abuses of the legal system to inflict monetary injury with a lawsuit (frivolous lawsuits I think they are called) exist.

So if you really want to enforce your boundaries with financial penalties mainly to the trespasser/poacher then civil court as a pro-se (self representing) litigant is what needs done. Not likely that your general poacher can keep up with that so they get stuck needing to hire a lawyer. And honestly, it is not that difficult to go pro se these days with all legal words translatable to plain English, Google Scholar available to look up previous tort (decisions/case law) and many of the legal maneuvers on paper available from law firms that try and draw you into their practice by posting general format (of reply to response, motion to dismiss, etc) for free that can largely be blatantly copied. I haven't lost a case yet (the woman who stole a horse, the roofer that stole a $11k deposit and created more damage to the roof, the rental tenants that tore down a hunting cabin on an adjacent parcel they didn't even rent, and half a dozen more) Often the financial pain of having to pay their own lawyers pushes them to settle and pay up. Either way, it's a $10-20k fine in the end paying their lawyer, way more than anything the state is going to levy.

What I find helpful about this thread are the ideas on preventing and frustrating the poaching/trespassing in the first place. as such, it hopefully eliminates the need to (over time) have to take the time to take someone to court pro-se at all. I also appreciate the accounts of what worked or might work to solidify the case against a persistent poacher. Over time I hope to add to the list of possibilities that worked in that realm. Meanwhile Im very thankful for the ideas shared. Thank you!!

 

[Kdawg]

Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with people searching for lost dogs, and sometimes kids that wander on my property. Helped quite a few over the years find their kid or dog in some nasty weather. I was always profusely thanked for my efforts, and taken out to dinner a few times for my efforts. Dogs and kids wander. I would expect the same from my neighbors if it happened to me.

Couldn't agree more on the legit "got lost" and "was looking for my dog"... Im out there helping in a minute for that cause as well. Spent an entire day looking for a [friendly] neighbor's dog when it was found under her porch that evening keeping cool. Reward beers were the best I've ever had. Very different from entering, shooting and killing whatever on a property that does not belong to you as we would all agree....

 

[Joisey]

Joisey, I agree with you too. Landowners should get the benefit of the doubt and have the right to press charges (essentially force a prosecutor to move the case through) but in my experience the law enforcement start making excuses for the trespasser because they don't want to bring the case. Or perhaps the case log of "minor infractions" is so long that they are often dismissed, reduced, changed to a lesser charge to remove the case from the docket (court schedule)

What ends up happening (in my situation for example) is that the usual suspects know how to act and what to say to get off with a warning or small fine at worst. Way cheaper than leasing the land to hunt legally, and free if you don't get caught.

The teeth really live in taking them to civil court with evidence that law enforcement would not act on. You sue them of damages; that can not be an arbitrary sum, but rather the money lost by their actions. (reducing the value of a hunting lease for example or the cost of the whole hunting lease per incident per person as in some states is permissible) It is expensive for the landowner if you hire a lawyer ($10k minimum retainer and realistic costs $20-25k to bring a suit for a few thousand in damages... then you still have to collect (don't get me started on that) Due to the "American Rule" each side must pay their own legal fees except for where laws against abuses of the legal system to inflict monetary injury with a lawsuit (frivolous lawsuits I think they are called) exist.

So if you really want to enforce your boundaries with financial penalties mainly to the trespasser/poacher then civil court as a pro-se (self representing) litigant is what needs done. Not likely that your general poacher can keep up with that so they get stuck needing to hire a lawyer. And honestly, it is not that difficult to go pro se these days with all legal words translatable to plain English, Google Scholar available to look up previous tort (decisions/case law) and many of the legal maneuvers on paper available from law firms that try and draw you into their practice by posting general format (of reply to response, motion to dismiss, etc) for free that can largely be blatantly copied. I haven't lost a case yet (the woman who stole a horse, the roofer that stole a $11k deposit and created more damage to the roof, the rental tenants that tore down a hunting cabin on an adjacent parcel they didn't even rent, and half a dozen more) Often the financial pain of having to pay their own lawyers pushes them to settle and pay up. Either way, it's a $10-20k fine in the end paying their lawyer, way more than anything the state is going to levy.

What I find helpful about this thread are the ideas on preventing and frustrating the poaching/trespassing in the first place. as such, it hopefully eliminates the need to (over time) have to take the time to take someone to court pro-se at all. I also appreciate the accounts of what worked or might work to solidify the case against a persistent poacher. Over time I hope to add to the list of possibilities that worked in that realm. Meanwhile Im very thankful for the ideas shared. Thank you!!

I agree about going to court pro-se, BUT, that costs me time and a small amount of money. To me, at least, that is time wasted (as far as trespassing/hunting/dumping goes. I'm 66 years old. I never liked to waste time, so I call the people that get paid to deal with these people and go on my merry way.

As far as trespassing being after a warning from the land owner, I've been told that I never told them to leave the property. Was before cell phones and didn't have a tape recorder handy. Too much wiggle room. Cost them cash and go on with my day.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Jed1124]

Born in Teaneck NJ, grew up in Hackensack NJ, living in Mays Landing NJ for a short while. Bought a house and property in WV. Tired of the crap in NJ.

That is how the NJ game wardens were in the sixties here. Not any longer. I had a guy parked on my property hunting. I called the tow company, but they were busy for a few hours, so I called the state police (which took care of that area). Gave them the tag number and vehicle description. The state cop called the game warden who drove to where the guys tree stand was (on my property) and told him that the property owner (me) was pissed about him trespassing and hunting on his property.

20 minutes later the hunter comes stomping up to his vehicle, yelling that I cost him a prize buck, and I'm not using the land, so I should let other use it.

I asked him if he was married, and he replied yes. I then told him that he wasn't using his wife at this time, so perhaps I should.

Later that day I cut his tree stand down (on my property) and cut the aluminum stand up in tiny pieces and piled them neatly at the base of the tree with one of my 'no trespassing signs' in front of it.

Never saw him again. If it's on my property, it's mine.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with people searching for lost dogs, and sometimes kids that wander on my property. Helped quite a few over the years find their kid or dog in some nasty weather. I was always profusely thanked for my efforts, and taken out to dinner a few times for my efforts. Dogs and kids wander. I would expect the same from my neighbors if it happened to me.

Pretty country in WV. Can't be any more different than Jersey I would imagine.

I like the line about the guys wife. That's classic. Are you sure your not Vic DeBenidetto? Just kidding..........

 

[Kdawg]

Wow! A man of action. I hope my suggestion works out well for you.

Kindly let us know how it all works out. I am rather interested in what model of equipment you will be using.

Im in it to win it and am looking for any way to be ahead of them. Angry nerds, once created, are the most dangerous animals out there. As I may have mentioned before, I was not serious about pursuit of the persistent poachers but there is something about being pushed past a line that one hasn't even mentally established (prior to the dog incident for me) that makes taking action a NEED instead of a want. Difficult to explain unless you have been there.

I like the DJI commercial drones such as the Matrice 200 or 300 with exchangeable batteries to extend flight time and for their stability and payload capability. I might want to rent a YellowScan LIDAR system to map my property at some point too. That looks really really fun.

The older FLIR VUEpro (640x512) would probably suffice for thermal imaging at night/day and I'm impressed with imaging of game and my fox-chicken eating family nemasis. beyond that but likely out of the budget is the Zenmuse H20T which is still a thermal camera of 640x512 pixels but a really nice 20mp camera as well... I don't need that, really.

I'll update on the drone purchases when the time comes more obsessive research pending. have to spend quite a few hours practicing too.