Who is at fault here. Climber or ground crew?

[jomoco]

The climber was at fault, period.

jomoco

 

[oldirty]

hey pdq. we got some beefy white pine out this way. getting away from the city and into the burbs they start getting real big. obviously not like the studs they got out west but still a big tree, to me at least.


fun tree to work. straight up and down for the most part.



if you are getting a good pull while taking a top expect the hinge to pop a c hair earlier than you would like. if you gotta lower the branches its not bad because they are all right there and you can use the branch above the one your cutting for the lowering point.

in regards to piecing out the log, if i am in the bucket i'll go bigger than i would if i am on the stem. lol. i'd rather make a couple extra cuts than going to big and end up snap'n what i am standing on.

 

[JTinaTree]

The climber was at fault, period.

jomoco

The Groundman you mean? That pole shake would not have been half of that if the rope would have been let run proper...

 

[jomoco]

The Groundman you mean? That pole shake would not have been half of that if the rope would have been let run proper...

I mean the climber. It was a relatively mild ride, and had he had his arms locked and pushing against the trunk, he could have easily rode it out instead of getting thrashed about like a helpless rookie rag doll.

Look at the video again closely, the idiot has his arms bent the whole time, big mistake.

Are you a rookie too, like him?

jomoco

 

[JTinaTree]

I mean the climber. It was a relatively mild ride, and had he had his arms locked and pushing against the trunk, he could have easily rode it out instead of getting thrashed about like a helpless rookie rag doll.

Look at the video again closely, the idiot has his arms bent the whole time, big mistake.

Are you a rookie too, like him?

jomoco

I don't know jomco lets see, is someone who has been climbing/rigging for three years a rookie in your mind??

In the vid its obvious that guy was not prepared for what was about to happen..

 

[jomoco]

I don't know jomco lets see, is someone who has been climbing/rigging for three years a rookie in your mind??

In the vid its obvious that guy was not prepared for what was about to happen..

If you don't take a double wrap with your lanyard and lock your arms straight and push against the stem when you catch heads and take the bull ride, then you're a rookie who's eventually going to get hurt no matter how long you've been gambling on your groundcrew and luck to save you.

A chainsaw lanyard is nice when you have to move quick to brace yourself, atleast that's how the pro's I know do it.

Fore thought and preparation are a rigger's best friend JT.

jomoco

 

[pdqdl]

Let's over-analyze this some more !

It occurs to me that bracing his arms probably would not have helped. When he finished the cut he was not exactly opposite the direction of the falling top. Hence, he was partly on the side of the oscillation, and probably would have been knocked loose no matter how strong he was.

He didn't look like a rookie to me. As the top went over, he calmly snapped his chainsaw on in preparation for the shake, and it looks to me like he did brace his arms. Even the very best of us misjudges a falling weight every now and then. I believe this was one of those cases.

[here is the original post on You-Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AjbMO-REvc ]

The oscillation was not caused entirely by a short stop on the rope. Watch carefully, and you will see that the trunk is pushed quite a ways to the left before the top ever hits the rope. This is due to the force exerted against the trunk by the falling top as it tips over and is accelerated horizontally (to the right) in the fall.

At just the right moment (as the trunk begins to return to it's vertical position), the rope draws tight and accelerates the top back towards the trunk (to the left). This naturally amplifies the oscillation of the trunk to the right, and the climber goes for a heck of a ride. He even has the bad luck of having the top section slam into the tree during it's ocillation back to the left, and that's when the tree really takes off.

His arms were braced when the tree was pulling him to the right, he let the tree get closer to him as it swung back to the left; the acceleration back to the right yanked everything so tight that he couldn't stay braced, and he became the victim of a bad cut.

This type of interaction is often referred to as "harmonic resonance". In this case, the two moving objects combine energy to increase the movement of one of them. If the rope had been caught later in the cycle, or perhaps much sooner, the guy probably would have been fine.

It might be argued that if he wasn't a rookie, he would have gone higher and prevented the problem dropping a smaller top section. Most of the times that I have seen big sections dropped out of a tree, it was by a climber with lots of confidence in their ability, so I'm guessing it was mostly just bad luck in combination with a bit of a lapse in judgement.

 

[pdqdl]

Here is an almost identical cut, but there is no rope used, and the oscillation is not enhanced by the falling top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M6WtXZfdWE&NR=1

Notice that the trunk actually oscillates longer (but slower) than the bad one, no doubt because the hanging top section eventually dampens the rocking back and forth.

 

[jomoco]

It occurs to me that bracing his arms probably would not have helped. When he finished the cut he was not opposite the direction of the falling top. Hence, he was partly on the side of the oscillation, and probably would have been knocked loose no matter how strong he was.

He didn't look like a rookie to me. As the top went over, he calmly snapped his chainsaw on in preparation for the shake, and looks to me like he did brace his arms. Even the very best of us misjudges a falling weight every now and then. I believe this was one of those cases.

[here is the original post on You-Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AjbMO-REvc ]

The oscillation was not caused entirely by a short stop on the rope. Watch carefully, and you will see that the trunk is pushed quite a ways to the left before the top ever hits the rope. This is due to the force exerted against the trunk by the falling top as it tips over and is accelerated horizontally (to the right) in the fall.

At just the right moment (as the trunk begins to return to it's vertical position), the rope draws tight and accelerates the top back towards the trunk (to the left). This naturally amplifies the oscillation of the trunk to the right, and the climber goes for a heck of a ride. He even has the bad luck of having the top section slam into the tree at it full oscillation to the right, and that's when the tree really takes off.

This type of interaction is often referred to as "harmonic resonance". In this case, the two moving objects combine energy to increase the movement of one of them. If the rope had been caught later in the cycle, or perhaps much sooner, the guy probably would have been fine.

It might be argued that if he wasn't a rookie, he would have gone higher and prevented the problem dropping a smaller top section. Most of the times that I have seen big sections dropped out of a tree, it was by a climber with lots of confidence in their ability, so I'm guessing it was mostly just bad luck in combination with a bit of a lapse in judgement.

Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard.

He didn't lock his arms straight and push against the trunk hard enough to move as one with the swaying trunk.

He didn't use a chainsaw lanyard to facilitate quicker safe disposal of the saw and more time to brace himself for the ride.

He didn't calculate the fall direction of the head being caught properly.

He left unnecessary stubs on the stem that could have gored him like a real bull while he was being tossed about like a rookie.

That's 5 serious mistakes that no pro in his right mind would have made Pdql.

I contend he screwed up big time!

jomoco

 

[pdqdl]

I'll take those one at a time, please:

"Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard."

I really can't tell, one way or the other. I thought it rather remarkable that he didn't fly off the tree entirely, so I'm not sure that he didn't have a double wrap.


"He didn't lock his arms straight and push against the trunk hard enough to move as one with the swaying trunk."

Yes, he did lock his arms for the first swing. When the tree came back toward him, he bent his elbows to absorb some of the force. After that, I think he was just overpowered by the motion.


"He didn't use a chainsaw lanyard to facilitate quicker safe disposal of the saw and more time to brace himself for the ride."

It looks to me like he was completely under control until the oscillations ripped him off his perch. He was belt clipped and he was straight-armed before the tree swung to the right. In fact, he rode the first complete oscillation cycle without any problem. It wasn't untill the tree accelerated away from him that he had any problems. What good is straight-arming if your back is bent over backwards from the 5 g's of acceleration that your belt is putting on you?

Granted, I believe in lanyards, but imagine how bad that would have been if the chainsaw was whipping around from his belt at the end of a 4'-5' lanyard? It could very well have been worse than attaching directly to his belt, and I think he knew that. He might have been knocked unconscious by the flying saw; how would that have worked to his advantage?


"He didn't calculate the fall direction of the head being caught properly."

Where did that come from? It looks like the top has a slight lean to the left, but the prevailing wind is sweeping it strongly, confidently to the right. I don't see ANY mistake there.


"He left unnecessary stubs on the stem that could have gored him like a real bull while he was being tossed about like a rookie."

Well, I'll give you that, but maybe he left them there because he wanted it for a handle, or perhaps a stopper for his double wrap that we can't really see. There are no other stubs on the entire trunk, so I don't think he left it there out of ignorance.



"That's 5 serious mistakes that no pro in his right mind would have made Pdql.

I contend he screwed up big time!"

I don't see it quite that way. I think he got caught by an unfortunate resonance, and got overpowered by the result.

Screwed up? Sure! I would not have cut off such a tall section, probably because I think I would be afraid of the yank, and because I don't ever get any trees like that. But you see, I WOULD be a rookie in that kind of tree.

 

[jomoco]

"Let's see, he didn't take a double wrap with his lanyard."

I really can't tell, one way or the other. I thought it rather remarkable that he didn't fly off the tree entirely, so I'm not sure that he didn't have a double wrap.


"He didn't lock his arms straight and push against the trunk hard enough to move as one with the swaying trunk."

Yes, he did lock his arms for the first swing. When the tree came back toward him, he bent his elbows to absorb some of the force. After that, I think he was just overpowered by the motion.


"He didn't use a chainsaw lanyard to facilitate quicker safe disposal of the saw and more time to brace himself for the ride."

It looks to me like he was completely under control until the oscillations ripped him off his perch. He was belt clipped and he was straight-armed before the tree swung to the right. In fact, he rode the first complete oscillation cycle without any problem. It wasn't untill the tree accelerated away from him that he had any problems. What good is straight-arming if your back is bent over backwards from the 5 g's of acceleration that your belt is putting on you?

Granted, I believe in lanyards, but imagine how bad that would have been if the chainsaw was whipping around from his belt at the end of a 4'-5' lanyard? It could very well have been worse than attaching directly to his belt, and I think he knew that. He might have been knocked unconscious by the flying saw; how would that have worked to his advantage?


"He didn't calculate the fall direction of the head being caught properly."

Where did that come from? It looks like the top has a slight lean to the left, but the prevailing wind is sweeping it strongly, confidently to the right. I don't see ANY mistake there.


"He left unnecessary stubs on the stem that could have gored him like a real bull while he was being tossed about like a rookie."

Well, I'll give you that, but maybe he left them there because he wanted it for a handle, or perhaps a stopper for his double wrap that we can't really see. There are no other stubs on the entire trunk, so I don't think he left it there out of ignorance.



"That's 5 serious mistakes that no pro in his right mind would have made Pdql.

I contend he screwed up big time!"

I don't see it quite that way. I think he got caught by an unfortunate resonance, and got overpowered by the result.

Screwed up? Sure! I would not have cut off such a tall section, probably because I think I would be afraid of the yank, and because I don't ever get any trees like that. But you see, I WOULD be a rookie in that kind of tree.

If you think that was enough of a ride to over power a competent climber/rigger, you must be a rookie.

Like I said before, it was a mild ride that could have been easily ridden out safely by any competent pro that knows his business.

jomoco

 

[pdqdl]

I guess we will just have to let other viewers post their opinions.

But let's try to keep this nice, ok? Just because we see it differently does not mean that either is wrong. No need for insults, eh?

 

[pdqdl]

I took another closer look

Jomoco:

You're right, no double wrap.

You're wrong, he DID have a lanyard on the saw.

You're wrong, the stubs were clearly left there to keep the rigging above his lanyard. Might have been done otherwise, but clearly not a mistake. I've done it that way, and I know you have too.

 

[jomoco]

I guess we will just have to let other viewers post their opinions.

But let's try to keep this nice, ok? Just because we see it differently does not mean that either is wrong. No need for insults, eh?

Why are you guys so sensitive?

This is a rough business in which making just one mistake can get you killed, much less 5 mistakes at once.

Learning from your mistakes is the key to a long career in this biz Pdql.

That's what good tree forums are about, or should be, in my opinion.

If I get serious at times it's because I've got firsthand experience of what happens to sloppy rookies in over their heads, and it aint pretty.

jomoco

 

[D Mc]

Jomoco:

You're right, no double wrap.

You're wrong, he DID have a lanyard on the saw.

You're wrong, the stubs were clearly left there to keep the rigging above his lanyard. Might have been done otherwise, but clearly not a mistake. I've done it that way, and I know you have too.

I'm glad you finally caught sight of the lanyard and lack of double wrap. I was just about to type in the same with some snide comment about old guys needing their eyes checked more often. And now I don't have to do that.

However, Jomoco is right. The climber is like the airline pilot or the captain of a ship. He's calling the shots, because it is his life, and possibly others as well. As in all decisions, in evaluating a situation, if there is a chance that something may go wrong that procedure needs to be altered. In this case, a few feet higher and a smaller top would have taken the stress off the ground crew to the point where they may have been more successful. And even if not, the repercussions would not have been so dramatic. It is easy to second guess a scenario; hind sight is always 20/20. And analyzing a video like this is like sideline quarterbacking. It can be quite different when you are in the thick of things.

It is good though that we can learn from these to prevent from making the same mistakes.

But climbers should never forget the responsibilities they have in regards to their lives and others.

Dave