Who is legally responsible?

[twochains]

Moved over to an 18 acre tract, LO needs money bad so my boss pulled us and stuck us here for a couple days. So here is my problem...NO PROPERTY MARKINGS! LO is a tweaker/junky and I am having a very hard time with his property line ideas. I was cutting and hit blue ribbons and a fricken government walking path signs!?? I went to the LO and said , "Hey man, I am not cutting another tree down there until you ribbon some #### out"!

So, this place lays really sidelin' and I was dropping a line across the lower section and right s I am about a 1/4 way into my backcut, I look down and see the LO ribboning saplings right on the edge of my drop zone! Some tracts you just know right out of the gate are gonna be waaaay fricken worse than they have to be. Oh....! Towards the end of my day some geeked out wack drove a 4-wheeler in on me and my side kick as we were each fixing to drop trees! And then asked the other cutter if he knew how to cut trees! :bang:

So back to my original question about the line; What if the LO gets all tweeked out and screws up the property line... and I cut over it?? I found the up the mtn. adjacent LO and she showed me her line...but the corners aren't there! I'm pretty nervous about this job, but in my mind it's the LO responsibility to either hire a survey crew or ribbon it with a gps or something. I am pretty sure that this designated walking trail would have to be kept clear of tops, even if it is in the middle of no where. While trying to find some sort of lower property line, I found pine stumps, now I have cut on this adjacent property about 15 years ago and am with some certainty, feel as the stumps are on the other side of the line. I told the LO this and he insists he will have it all straightened out by 2moro. :bang:

 

[treeslayer2003]

twochains get the heck outa there in my state the guy that made the cut is responsible never trust a lo always get your own maps I learned this the hard way bout 15 16 years ago 2 oaks and a pine cost me 1500 because I trusted the lo on boundrys I wont make that mistake again good luck

 

[mitch95100]

Wouldnt that be expected to be laid out Before cutting commenced? It would be on my contract stating "property boundaries shall be properly marked"

Sent from me to you using my fingers

 

[madhatte]

It would be on my contract stating "property boundaries shall be properly marked"

Failing this, the infringed needs to be able to prove either negligence or malice on the part of the cutter to exact Triple Stumpage on a contractor. "Good Faith" is not a very good defense, though. If your boss is insured, and the LO is a crook, and you cut anyway... it's most likely that your boss's insurance will pay for any damages should this go to court. If your boss is NOT insured, he'll pay that Triple Stumpage himself. If he's insured NOW, and his insurance company forks out a big settlement, he won't be insured for long. This whole story reeks of risk. I advise EXTREME caution.

 

[twochains]

This has never really happened to me before. Generally there are boundary fences around here or a fresh survey. Bad thing is that my boss is out of town...

 

[twochains]

Wouldnt that be expected to be laid out Before cutting commenced? It would be on my contract stating "property boundaries shall be properly marked"

Sent from me to you using my fingers

Yeh, this is one of those jobs where you get a call at 5 am Wed morning saying to fire up the skidder and be ready to move in 30 mins. :rolleyes2: Pole truck will be there at 9 am to get the first load...:bang:

 

[slowp]

The Forest Service LEOs will go after the cutters.

 

[twochains]

The Forest Service LEOs will go after the cutters.

I actually would rather be cutting FS adjacent land...at least there would be boundary markers and coordinates that I could use. I don't know what a LEO is Ms. P.

I can't figure out what branch of the gubmnet put in the hiking trails... it's all private land surrounding this place. Looks to me to be Corp, however it is waay outside their boundaries. If it's Park service...it could get ugly...me and one of the Rangers have had words more than once...the last time I was handcuffed for asking him about one of the "Rainbow Tribe" thumping him a couple years back.

 

[slowp]

I actually would rather be cutting FS adjacent land...at least there would be boundary markers and coordinates that I could use. I don't know what a LEO is Ms. P.

I can't figure out what branch of the gubmnet put in the hiking trails... it's all private land surrounding this place. Looks to me to be Corp, however it is waay outside their boundaries. If it's Park service...it could get ugly...me and one of the Rangers have had words more than once...the last time I was handcuffed for asking him about one of the "Rainbow Tribe" thumping him a couple years back.

I have broken my acronym rule, sorry. Law Enforcement Officer.

 

[OlympicYJ]

Give your boss a call and let him know how the situation looks on the ground if he's reachable. Perhaps he didn't check himself. I would not log land owned by a tweaker.

 

[Spotted Owl]

My advise on this and what I would do. I wouldn't be asking here. I would be finding out from the enforcing agencies. You need to know who is responsible for what and to what extent. Then decide how you would proceed. Then come back and tell us what you found out and what is happening.

Don't forget as the guy with the saw in his hands, YOU are the one, everyone else is going to throw under the bus as fast as they can. A lot of bosses do this too. Specially when they have a lot of money at risk and possibility of losing their ins carrier. Better pull out your ear plugs so you can hear it coming if something happens.

A lot of time even the cops or whoever don't know what the laws are pertaining to this stuff. So they will go with what they see as the most logical. Right or wrong it happens. You want logical, it's you. You have the saw and you should have known better. Good luck fighting your way to innocence once that is started.



Owl

 

[twochains]

Sir, that is some good solid advise! I have to admit that even through a computer screen you have quite the presence!

So, I have contacted my boss and he says to stay up top and cut that strip being as I found that property line yesterday and walked it with the woman who owns it. Evidently the walking path goes through this property and no one seems to know what organization has put it in. There are actually 2 trails that run most of the length of the property I am cutting. Evidently who ever put it in didn't inform the property owners that it was going to be there. That would piss me off...people walking through my place...I'd be putting up a fence!

If I knew who put the trail in I would contact them and tell them the situation and ask what our responsibilities are as far as tops. I just worry about the property line on the lower side. I am pretty nervous and upset that I have been put into this situation! I don't feel it is right for me to take the fall for this...nothing has happened yet...I'm still in the clear as of now...but I am expected to finish this job quick and I badly need some sort of a solid property line. The plot maps of these properties are just hand drawn plots with measurement and what the corners are supposed to be.

This fricken sucks...All I do is try and live an honest life, work 7 days a week when permitted...make a living for my family...and now what should be a quick and easy job could possibly go bad for ME! I hate a fricken tweeker so damn bad... One thing about it, the LO has zero credibility...this money is going to an attempted murder charge and mass drug bust! He shot a dude a month ago three times... I can't even believe I am even cutting this guys timber!!!!! I can't even believe I am even having this discussion...but I am pretty worked up about it! I could almost scream at my boss for this...he knows the LO is a POS...he just wanted the timber.

 

[Gologit]

Have you thought about just walking away from it? Spotted Owl gave you some great advice.

There are probably more things involved than just fuzzy boundaries. Protect yourself first. If you're not sure...don't cut. Simple as that.

If you get canned for that it's still better than being canned and paying some big fines .

 

[Spotted Owl]

Twochains. Are you a direct hire to the boss man, employer? Or a hired gun contract saw jockey?



Owl

 

[twochains]

Yes Sir, I have thought about walking off from it. Probably should, I don't think it would cause me to get canned, my boss knows it's a jacked up deal...but I need to walk him out there when he gets back in town. He won't be upset with me for my concern. I think he must have cruised this timber from the porch... and has no idea how jacked up the N and E line are. When he was leaving I asked how long this tract was and he was like, " you will know when you get there". I'm like really??? Me and my side kick hiked out the S line and walked to the corner with no avail. The land drops shear off with nothing for any type of a corner. And WOW is it shear!! I have always cut timber in the hills but can really only say on this steep of ground, a couple times.

I want to be all like, yep sure, you can count on me...I will handle it. I have only had a similar thing happen one other time in the last 19 years. A tract was split up for their 4 kids. Well, there were no lines. Oddly enough three of the kids were present before I went to cutting. All showed their part, oddly enough the non-present sister whom resides in Oregon...got her timber thinned w/o consent. I think the other three were just like piss on it she won't ever be back around here. That kind of crap is shady.

 

[twochains]

Twochains. Are you a direct hire to the boss man, employer? Or a hired gun contract saw jockey?



Owl

Direct hired employee.

 

[Oldtimer]

None of the advice here matters except this: the law varies by state and you need to protect yourself with a contract.

Find out what the law is in your state. Write an explicit contract, make them sign.

In NH, the landowner is ultimately responsible for knowing his lines and keeping the contractors on his land. It can get dicey, because if the line is blazed and ribboned, and the logger takes a few over the line it becomes HIS problem.

 

[Oldtimer]

I see you are a hired man. Just make the owner and boss man both agree on lines, and inform you. After that, it's their problem.

 

[Spotted Owl]

My take on this and my take only. My above post preceding and over shadowing.

If I was a direct hired employee I would have the boss man go around and do the boundary flagging, himself. Then I would have him draw a map and write down the directions of what he wanted. Only then would I do anymore on this job. I would also have to be pretty hungry to keep on this one too. The boss man doing this would be a small amount of proof that you are following direct orders as an employee from your employer, it may buy you some slack. I would not count on that one though. The boss has a business and that is getting wood to the mill, by extension that is your business, no logs no pay. So ya he wanted the timber, that's the name of this game. Do the logs you are cutting give you enough pay to get your stuff taken care of and still have enough left over to cover the mistakes you might be on tap for? Do I keep on this job? Both these questions are answered by each other in my book. If you got the extra cash handy then by all means keep cutting. If not. Toss your corks on your back and get walkin.

I get the feeling though that you're not going to walk away. So I'll also advise that you get your affairs in order just in case you are the one on tap. Do as much preparation leg work now so you are as ready as possible when the bad starts to flow. Cause once the gates open it comes fast and it don't stop for a while. If you don't have the cash to pay, be ready to have property seized or liens placed against your assets. If it does go that far, a lien depending can last for a very long time and things get worse as that time goes on.

If you were a hired gun I'd tell ya to run for the hills on this one. My guts tell me, to tell ya the same thing even with you being a direct hire. The boss has got other jobs maybe he'll cut you some slack and let you go back to another side and keep working.



Owl

 

[roberte]

When in doubt, mysteriously run out of saw gas.
It sounds like someone's else's problem is becoming your two alarm fire, and it shouldn't be that way.