wood volume etc.

[leon]

:chainsawguy:

Greetings and salutations from my corner of the soon to be frozen eastern
wilderness at 1140 feet above mean sea level.

Before I ask my question I apologise beforehand if I get anyone into a lather about firewood.

I am again investigating firewood and have the opportunity due to a captive audience and perpetual cold weather for sales of same:

In my opinion it is better to sell firewood by the ton rather than the cord volume as I plan on using a 20 foot shipping container to kiln dry my wood stock as it can be ready to burn in three days/72 hours etc by kiln drying with forced air from an outside wood boiler with a heat exchager and fan to dry the firewood.

I can buy log length firewood for thirty five dollars a ton and I am investigating a tractor mount or midsize chomper processor as well or at a bare minimum a TW 5-7 with log lift and tray and a small conveyor for feeding the kiln and delivery truck etc.etc.

Kiln dried firewood is a value added product that I know will sell easily as green firewood is being sold for $180 a cord USD locally.

my problem is deciding about a weighing system as I have thought of using a weighveyor conveyor scale on the processor when the logs are off loaded and split as they come of the trucks log bunk.



I want repeat customers and I want to give them a good product.


your thoughts and opinions are most welcome as I always research something to death before I make any decisions.

BTW I have an old montgomery ward splitter 22-ton with a new pump and motor I am looking to sell-no warranty(sold as) it is 25 years old and I have replaced the original motor with a new briggs-10 years ago and the pump with a new JSB pump beore that with very little time on the splitter as I was not cutting and splitting commercialy probably a total of 100 hours on the splitter since 1988-89.

thanks for a great web site

 

[Haywire Haywood]

What is the added value of kiln dried wood over the normal stack and wait method? I can see it better for you as your product will be ready for market much faster, but I see no added value for your customer. Dry wood is dry wood regardless of what method is used to get it that way.

JMO,
Ian

 

[computeruser]

What is the added value of kiln dried wood over the normal stack and wait method? I can see it better for you as your product will be ready for market much faster, but I see no added value for your customer. Dry wood is dry wood regardless of what method is used to get it that way.

JMO,
Ian

I was thinking the same thing. As a customer I couldn't care less how the wood got dry.

What is the market price for a cord of seasoned wood where you are? I guess that this is what really matters, in terms of the economic advantage of selling kiln dried. Around here we're seeing $180/cord dry from major sources, and as little as $120/cord dry from some of the guys who are clearcutting their own land. In both instances it is primarily oak/cherry/ash/maple mix, seasoned at least one spring-summer-fall.

What does the state weights and measures people think about selling by weight rather than volume? Myself I'd prefer to buy by the cord, since that is a familiar unit and weight will vary by species, time of weighing, and whatnot. Is your interest in per-pound pricing a result of a desire to cut back on handling expenses? If you were to sell by volume instead, would this require tedious hand-stacking?

Anyway, per-pound and kiln-dried are both interesting ideas. Keep us informed as your plan gets worked out!



If you were closer I might be interested in taking your old splitter off your hands!

 

[leon]

firewood volumes

I was thinking the same thing. As a customer I couldn't care less how the wood got dry.

What is the market price for a cord of seasoned wood where you are? I guess that this is what really matters, in terms of the economic advantage of selling kiln dried. Around here we're seeing $180/cord dry from major sources, and as little as $120/cord dry from some of the guys who are clearcutting their own land. In both instances it is primarily oak/cherry/ash/maple mix, seasoned at least one spring-summer-fall.

What does the state weights and measures people think about selling by weight rather than volume? Myself I'd prefer to buy by the cord, since that is a familiar unit and weight will vary by species, time of weighing, and whatnot. Is your interest in per-pound pricing a result of a desire to cut back on handling expenses? If you were to sell by volume instead, would this require tedious hand-stacking?

Anyway, per-pound and kiln-dried are both interesting ideas. Keep us informed as your plan gets worked out!



If you were closer I might be interested in taking your old splitter off your hands!

The big suppliers are getting $180.00 USD plus a four percent fuel tax.
New York State allows you to sell firewood by the cord volume or by the weight/tonnage.
The last thing I want to do is stack fire wood as I have no room for it and I have very wet swampy ground!!! I want to be as efficient as possible so selling it out othe kiln is the best way.

A twenty foot container gives you almost 1280 cubic feet of volume- minus the ducting for air flow one cord of wood is 128 cubic feet so you could just throw in almost 9 full cords and worry about dry tonnage later.

As I stated earlier a kiln would allow me to selll a quality product more quickly as a customer will have reduced creosote and by kiln drying it reduces the moisture to a very low level and by having it kiln dried I can sell it right out of the kiln reducing my handling to a bare minimum with two movements-the first feeding it from the splitter or processor and the second from moving it from the kiln to the truck or trailer and then delivering it and the other big reason is I do not have a lot of land to store logs I could probably store 10 loads of firewood logs so my available space and work area is at a minimum and I want a happy satisfied customer and repeat customer.

By using a wood moisture meter to check the wood I can also show the customer what the moisture content is as well proofing my product.

having a scale ticket to verify the weight and give to the customer is a big selling tool.

 

[Haywire Haywood]

It might be dryer as it came out of the kiln but if your customer isn't storing it in an airtight container, it will soon be at the same moisture content as the environment it's stored in.

In any case, we're splittin' hairs here and it sounds like it'll work well for you in your situation.

Good luck with your business,
Ian

 

[ddhlakebound]

The big suppliers are getting $180.00 USD plus a four percent fuel tax.
New York State allows you to sell firewood by the cord volume or by the weight/tonnage.
The last thing I want to do is stack fire wood as I have no room for it and I have very wet swampy ground!!! I want to be as efficient as possible so selling it out othe kiln is the best way.

A twenty foot container gives you almost 1280 cubic feet of volume- minus the ducting for air flow one cord of wood is 128 cubic feet so you could just throw in almost 9 full cords and worry about dry tonnage later.

As I stated earlier a kiln would allow me to selll a quality product more quickly as a customer will have reduced creosote and by kiln drying it reduces the moisture to a very low level and by having it kiln dried I can sell it right out of the kiln reducing my handling to a bare minimum with two movements-the first feeding it from the splitter or processor and the second from moving it from the kiln to the truck or trailer and then delivering it and the other big reason is I do not have a lot of land to store logs I could probably store 10 loads of firewood logs so my available space and work area is at a minimum and I want a happy satisfied customer and repeat customer.

By using a wood moisture meter to check the wood I can also show the customer what the moisture content is as well proofing my product.

The kiln doesn't really save you a step, it just saves you time and lowers moisture an extra 3-5%. For that time savings you'll be burning a fair amount of the wood you just paid $35/ton for, just to dry the rest, so your actual cost/ton will be higher.

I think you'll get more like 6-7 cords in the kiln if its just thrown in, a cord is 128 cu ft, tightly stacked. Just throwing it in a 1280ft3 container, you'll lose 25-30% in airspace.

I've never used a kiln, but I'm guessing that in a big full container like that the wood at the top will be somewhat drier than the wood at the bottom, if it happens that way, you'll have more work and less efficiency in getting it dry.

All these factors mean that you will need to sell you kiln dried wood for a premium in order to have any sort of a margin at all. Firewood is a high labor, low margin product as it is, and unless you can find enough people who want to pay more for a kiln dried product, you could be sitting on a kiln full of dry wood for a week or a month. Still got to move it out before you can dry more, adding a step to the process.

I hope your equipment is paid for, because if you've got an equipment payment, you could be working for near nothing until it's paid off.

Just my thoughts, maybe way off base......Good luck.

Edited to add my thought on selling by weight.

The problems with selling by the ton are: Customer has no way to verify how much is there. With a cord, it's easily checked, just stack it up, and measure. By weight, one time you could deliver mixed hardwood of lower density, thus the same weight takes up more space. The next time you deliver to them, it could be all very dense wood. The one ton pile of dense wood will be much smaller than the one ton pile of less dense wood, possibly making the customer feel they've been shorted.

 

[turnkey4099]

I pretty much agree with ddhlakebound.

1. Labor:

Your proposed method is going to be even more labor intensive than just stacking outside (throw in, throw out, throw on truck) plus trying to fill the container by tossing is going to lose a lot of space at the top.

You also add the labor of feeding the fire.

2. Cost: Burning part of your input takes off the profit end.

The downside is you cannot charge a premium as the customer only wants dry wood and could care less how it got dry.

I am just shadetreeing it here but I don't think you can dry green wood in a kiln in 3 days.

Harry K

 

[IndyIan]

Do you know anyone that works at the dump? I'd think that would be the best way to weigh a load. I don't know how else you could cost effectively weigh your wood.
Also if your kiln method gets hot enough to kill bugs that could be your biggest sale generator. Bug free fire wood would get a premium out of some people for sure.
I'm pretty sure someone here sells bug free firewood at a premium. Do some searching.
Ian

 

[spike60]

The first thing you will run into is that people are accustomed to buying wood by the cord, and they will certainly be confused about buying by weight. It just runs counter to the norm, and you will spend an awful lot of time trying to explain this to everyone. Kind of a marketing headache, IMO. Made even more complicated by the fact that some woods weigh more than others.

Also, however you do it, the kiln process will add some cost that you will have to recover. I would guess that you would have a hard time getting a higher price to offset that added cost.

 

[STEELHEAD]

rookie firewood retailer

Ive never sold a single cord but thinkin about it, We use many a ton a year and love the wood heat,.I have a Question about wood weight ,... Does the heaver hard woods burn longer then the lighter hard woods? I guess my point is,... IS a cord of scotch pine weighs what,?.. And a cord of red oak weighs what,?. VRS BTU VALUE......So my Question is What is the most accurate way to sell a cord,?..Is it by weight or cord,..Moisture content really screws up the weight thing, Getting back to the hard woods Its all about BTUs right So a so called hard wood cord that weighs half what a oak cord weighs Does it have half the BTUs,...Forget about the pine,... Iam wondering about the BTUs scale Compared to the Weight scale,...Bottom line is,.. Is the weight ,..SAME MOISTURE, THE most accurate Or the size of the pile,.I have relitively no experince at ,, even a guess. Thanks E, J,

 

[STEELHEAD]

rookie firewood retailer

Ive never sold a single cord but thinkin about it, We use many a ton a year and love the wood heat,.I have a Question about wood weight ,... Does the heaver hard woods burn longer then the lighter hard woods? I guess my point is,... IS a cord of scotch pine weighs what,?.. And a cord of red oak weighs what,?. VRS BTU VALUE......So my Question is What is the most accurate way to sell a cord,?..Is it by weight or cord,..Moisture content really screws up the weight thing, Getting back to the hard woods Its all about BTUs right So a so called hard wood cord that weighs half what a oak cord weighs Does it have half the BTUs,...Forget about the pine,... Iam wondering about the BTUs scale Compared to the Weight scale,...Bottom line is,.. Is the weight ,..SAME MOISTURE, THE most accurate Or the size of the pile,.I have relitively no experince at ,, even a guess. Thanks E, J,

 

[OilHead]

Type this into your browser it will be the 15th one on the list once you get there. " NebGuide Heating with wood ". Producing , Harvesting and Processing F irewood.

 

[OilHead]

If you dont see it on the first page NebGuide there will be a place to type it in - Heating with wood -. There is also an ilustration of a backwords humbolt cut . A good guide to print out and keep in the truck when deciding what wood to take home. :deadhorse:

 

[turnkey4099]

Ive never sold a single cord but thinkin about it, We use many a ton a year and love the wood heat,.I have a Question about wood weight ,... Does the heaver hard woods burn longer then the lighter hard woods? I guess my point is,... IS a cord of scotch pine weighs what,?.. And a cord of red oak weighs what,?. VRS BTU VALUE......So my Question is What is the most accurate way to sell a cord,?..Is it by weight or cord,..Moisture content really screws up the weight thing, Getting back to the hard woods Its all about BTUs right So a so called hard wood cord that weighs half what a oak cord weighs Does it have half the BTUs,...Forget about the pine,... Iam wondering about the BTUs scale Compared to the Weight scale,...Bottom line is,.. Is the weight ,..SAME MOISTURE, THE most accurate Or the size of the pile,.I have relitively no experince at ,, even a guess. Thanks E, J,

The bottom line is that all wood "pound for pound" will have about the same BTU value. That is a pound of pine will contain the same BTUs as a pound of oak. Of course the pound of pine will be a lot bigger.

Thus when buying wood you buy it by the cord (which is 128 cu ft) no matter the species but you want the best value, i.e., the most btu per $ cost. Thus buying a cord of pine at the same price as a cord of oak would be very poor practice.

Harry K

 

[kellog]

Leon,

I love to see people take a new approach to things. It may work out and it may not but you don't get any great new innovations without someone taking a chance and just doing it. I don't think it is a totally crazy idea but you are going to have excellent marketing communications. I hope this works out for you and I applaud your innovative thinking.

 

[logbutcher]

Focus Group

Leon,

I love to see people take a new approach to things. It may work out and it may not but you don't get any great new innovations without someone taking a chance and just doing it. I don't think it is a totally crazy idea but you are going to have excellent marketing communications. I hope this works out for you and I applaud your innovative thinking.

Kellog is correct...he's the man with the EHS (Electric Hyraulic Splitter. How's it going BTW ?

Marketing people use a Focus Group to trial run new products or services. We use it for software for example. The industry is used to measures by the cord ( forget all this silliness about "ricks" or "facecords" or bananas )...it's still CORDS here in N. America at least. So, if you're changing buying by using weight get a group of experienced firewood consumers together and ask them. Or contact them. They're your future customers.

My opinion is stick to the cord measure. Kiln drying will add to your base cost of goods. Will customers care about HOW the wood is dried ? Great idea however to try.
JMHO

 

[kellog]

Logbutcher,

Its going well with the electric impact splitter (no hydraulics). GeeWiz prototype has all its parts finished and is being assembled. Should be done by next week. Thanks for asking.

 

[STLfirewood]

The industry is used to measures by the cord ( forget all this silliness about "ricks" or "facecords" or bananas )...it's still CORDS here in N. America at least. So, if you're changing buying by using weight get a group of experienced firewood consumers together and ask them. Or contact them. They're your future customers.

My opinion is stick to the cord measure. Kiln drying will add to your base cost of goods. Will customers care about HOW the wood is dried ? Great idea however to try.
JMHO

I can't go by this statement around here. There are to many people selling 2 ricks/ranks of 18inch wood as a cord. So when someone asks me for a cord Iand I give them the price of a true cord. (3 ranks of 16inch wood) they flip because I'm so much higher. Some people just hang up before you have a chance to explain why. But yes you should use the cord instead of weight I think.

Scott

 

[turnkey4099]

I can't go by this statement around here. There are to many people selling 2 ricks/ranks of 18inch wood as a cord. So when someone asks me for a cord Iand I give them the price of a true cord. (3 ranks of 16inch wood) they flip because I'm so much higher. Some people just hang up before you have a chance to explain why. But yes you should use the cord instead of weight I think.

Scott

If your state has wood sales regulation, reporting a few of the scam artists would soon get the word out. Scam artists in are a "bad thing" (tm) for any business.

Your use of "three ricks/ranks" is also incorrect. That is not a measureable quantity. 3 ricks 4'x8'x16" is meaningful the world over.

Harry K

Harry K

 

[Bdog]

I've just got finished reading The Backyard Lumberjack, great book by the way. Any way, there is a chapter about an experience working with a guy outside New York City. The guy delivered something like 30 ton of kiln dried wood a week to all sorts of people. The big seller I think is that kiln dried wood is cleaner and virtually bug free.It's also roughly twice the cost of traditionally dried wood. Point is, if you have the right area with customers with wood burners in the likes of condos, apartments,restaurants with wood ovens and such you may have a go at it. Just my two cents!