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...geeez dusty, you're given away tools left and right here... come on up here to PA with all that stuff :clap:

I reckon its payback time. Ive gotten a few freebies from Ian here lately. If you are interested in the router table Woodshop Ill gladly box it up and send it your way.:cheers:
 
I have a biscuit jointer and use it often... they do give you a very strong joint as was said... the moisture in the glue swells the biscuit before it sets. However, Fine Woodworking had an article about gluing up boards to make a wide table top or whatever, and after lots of trial and error and testing, they decided on most glue-ups they were just not necessary if you have two good jointed edges. The glue already dries harder than the wood... period. If you try and break the boards apart they will not separate at the glue line, they will break at weaker points in the wood. In those cases the biscuits were just not needed, kinda like overkill.

That said, I often use the biscuits even where they are overkill, just because I like using them.[/QUOTE]

Thats what I've been trying to say. Biscuits are completely unessacary in this situation. I'm not against biscuits or anything, just that they are not needed here. As stated before, wood is proven stronger then wood and WILL split in the wood grain, not the joint
 
Well see how it goes. I'll post some pics whether it turns into a glass organizer or a pile of scrap cedar. I don't have a real jointer to square my boards, I make do with the router table. It's set up so I can offset the fence a bit on one side and use it as a makeshift jointer. Seems to work ok so far, even though the fence is too short for the task.. 3' at best.

If that table saw is truely collecting dust, I'll take it. building a small table around it might be the next project.

thanks,
Ian
 
Well see how it goes. I'll post some pics whether it turns into a glass organizer or a pile of scrap cedar. I don't have a real jointer to square my boards, I make do with the router table. It's set up so I can offset the fence a bit on one side and use it as a makeshift jointer. Seems to work ok so far, even though the fence is too short for the task.. 3' at best.

If that table saw is truely collecting dust, I'll take it. building a small table around it might be the next project.

thanks,
Ian

Consider it done. Actually I have found that the router table makes a very nice jointer for smaller stuff. If you have some scrap 1x material laying around you can lengthen your fence(s) fairly easy on the table.
 
I have a biscuit jointer and use it often... they do give you a very strong joint as was said... the moisture in the glue swells the biscuit before it sets. However, Fine Woodworking had an article about gluing up boards to make a wide table top or whatever, and after lots of trial and error and testing, they decided on most glue-ups they were just not necessary if you have two good jointed edges. The glue already dries harder than the wood... period. If you try and break the boards apart they will not separate at the glue line, they will break at weaker points in the wood. In those cases the biscuits were just not needed, kinda like overkill.

That said, I often use the biscuits even where they are overkill, just because I like using them.

Thats what I've been trying to say. Biscuits are completely unessacary in this situation. I'm not against biscuits or anything, just that they are not needed here. As stated before, wood is proven stronger then wood and WILL split in the wood grain, not the joint[/QUOTE]

That's the thing with woodworkers. Everyone has there own way.

Well my own testing on old furniture I built years ago shows different. A blanket chest I built my wife just before I got the biscuit jointer is a perfect example. I edge glued the boards, not listening to my mentor, my grandfather. He told me to either dowel them, tongue and groove them, etc. I was 19 like you,(yes I was married at 19) didn't listen to him, and yup, 10 years later the top broke, at the glue joint. I re glued it after putting in biscuits, and its still fine. We still use it today, nearly 22 years after it was initially built, and nearly 12 years since I re glued it.
When a woodworking mag does a long term test, over the period of years as to the durability, I'll listen to it. Maybe. Until then I'll biscuit, or otherwise reinforce every joint.
Yes glue is stronger than wood. However wood moves a lot. Over time, a glue joint that is not reinforced in some way will fail AT the glue joint. If while the glue joint is fresh, a few day old at least, and you try to break the joint, sure the wood grain will fail 1st 9 out of 10 times. Give that glue joint 10 years, then try the same thing.
I've restored many antique tables over the years. The tops were tongue and groove on most of them. The tops were also rarely in need of reglueing. The leg stock that was glued up however most often was coming apart at the glue joints. Yes, the old glue is not as good as todays, but the blanket chest I mentioned earlier was glued with titebond, all I ever use.
I see on your user profile you've been a landscaper for 6 years. Since you were 13 apparently.. At least according to your post on the firewood and heating section, you said you were 19. By that logic, I'll count my cub scout birdhouse that I made at 9 or 10 as the beginning of my woodworking career. That means I've been woodworking for 31 or 32 years then. I'll stick with what I have given the test of time, not what some woodworking mag says.
Like I said at the beginning of this post, every woodworker does things differently. The difference is, some build pieces to last generations, while others don't care how long it lasts. Or believe everything they read.
 
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btw woodshop, I know its your quote orriginally, but that post was not dirrected at you. Know it all teens drive me nuts. I was one once afterall.
 
Alright you have me there stonykill. I'm in my last year in vocanional school studying carpentry and cabinetry. Yes, I've been mowing lawns since around age 13, but started pounding nails full time in the summer at age 16 which means mowing became a second income. But I think that if this is for the top, which means there would obviously be no load bearing or anything, but I can't speak for 20 years from now. Also I'm not some know it all teen yet, hopefully someday. Just for this thread I am going to find some old piece of furniture built 50 years ago and cut it up to see what joints were used in this situation.
 
Alright you have me there stonykill. I'm in my last year in vocanional school studying carpentry and cabinetry. Yes, I've been mowing lawns since around age 13, but started pounding nails full time in the summer at age 16 which means mowing became a second income. But I think that if this is for the top, which means there would obviously be no load bearing or anything, but I can't speak for 20 years from now. Also I'm not some know it all teen yet, hopefully someday. Just for this thread I am going to find some old piece of furniture built 50 years ago and cut it up to see what joints were used in this situation.


When I'm talking old furniture I mean old. The beginning of the industrial revolution or earlier. 125 years old or older. Most 50 year old furniture is already firewood.
 
thats the thing about the net. Anyone can post anything , it doesn't matter what they know about it and state it as fact. I just typed what I do, why, and Fords age as a refference point. Experience makes a difference. And I was refering to old as in antique furniture. I was an antique furniture restorer, before I went to work for myself. I learned how to build better furniture by studying what lasted 100 years and what didn't. Then figured out how to duplicate the results with a basic shop, with a few modern tools, to get similar results. Ford, not trying to peeve you off, not my style. To quote a great movie " just the facts maam"
 
I have a very old (8" I think) table saw in the shop collecting dust. It has a small table and needs a new on/off switch but it could be incorporated into a bench or something similar to make the table bigger. Ill let you have it if you want it. Might come in handy till you get a bigger/better one.

Here's what I did with my 29 year old 8" table saw.
 
Thants a wicked good idea Bob. It looks like it's on an IV. That 8" grinding wheel you put on it, is that the same abrasivie wheel you can put on a skilsaw? How long does that abrasive disc last before it wears out? I'd like to do something simliar to this. Looks very useful.
 
Thants a wicked good idea Bob. It looks like it's on an IV. That 8" grinding wheel you put on it, is that the same abrasivie wheel you can put on a skilsaw? How long does that abrasive disc last before it wears out? I'd like to do something simliar to this. Looks very useful.

My guess is it would be similar. The wheel I use to dress bars is a standard metal cut of wheel. I've had it for 2 years and have barely worn the sheen off.

For cutting I mainly use a 5" , 0.04" kerf cutting wheel. They wear very quickly but they are very cheap. I used this to rip a straight channel into some SHS steel to make the rails for my CS mill.

The stand that the water bottle hangs on is from an IV stand that I found in a dumpster outside a hospital! I only use the water cooling when I'm doing long cuts on thick stuff and/or am shaping something small and am holding it quite close to the blade.
 
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:cheers: :cheers:
If you are interested in the router table Woodshop Ill gladly box it up and send it your way.:cheers:
That would be very good of you and I appreciate the offer, but I already have a router table, thanks anyway. I actually built myself a pretty heavy duty cabinet style table about 10 years ago. I purposely made it solid and heavy so the sheer mass of it would absorb vibrations when running stock through it. I has served me well all these years. Upgraded to a Benchdog plate recently, much better, no flex whatsoever.

On the buiscuit or no buiscut... I certainly wasn't knocking anybodies style of woodworking. Just as Stony seems to be, I'm not one to read an article in a magazine, even a well respected one, and then assume it's gospel either. Although I have been working wood for the last 20+ years, guys like Stony who do it for a living usually have more insight into these kinds of things. Alas, I still have a pesky day job, woodworking is still a side business for me. As I said, I like my buiscut jointer and use it often. Some guys love them, some purists hate them. As for how necessary they are in certain situations of whether I will wish 20 years from now I HAD put biscuits in a glue up... guess I'll have to wait 20 years to see. :cheers: :cheers:
 
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I got the biscuit cutter today and have the first two scraps glued and clamped together. Ya gotta love new toys. :)

Ian
 
Thats what I've been trying to say. Biscuits are completely unessacary in this situation. I'm not against biscuits or anything, just that they are not needed here. As stated before, wood is proven stronger then wood and WILL split in the wood grain, not the joint
That's the thing with woodworkers. Everyone has there own way.

Well my own testing on old furniture I built years ago shows different. A blanket chest I built my wife just before I got the biscuit jointer is a perfect example. I edge glued the boards, not listening to my mentor, my grandfather. He told me to either dowel them, tongue and groove them, etc. I was 19 like you,(yes I was married at 19) didn't listen to him, and yup, 10 years later the top broke, at the glue joint. I re glued it after putting in biscuits, and its still fine. We still use it today, nearly 22 years after it was initially built, and nearly 12 years since I re glued it.
When a woodworking mag does a long term test, over the period of years as to the durability, I'll listen to it. Maybe. Until then I'll biscuit, or otherwise reinforce every joint.
Yes glue is stronger than wood. However wood moves a lot. Over time, a glue joint that is not reinforced in some way will fail AT the glue joint. If while the glue joint is fresh, a few day old at least, and you try to break the joint, sure the wood grain will fail 1st 9 out of 10 times. Give that glue joint 10 years, then try the same thing.
I've restored many antique tables over the years. The tops were tongue and groove on most of them. The tops were also rarely in need of reglueing. The leg stock that was glued up however most often was coming apart at the glue joints. Yes, the old glue is not as good as todays, but the blanket chest I mentioned earlier was glued with titebond, all I ever use.
I see on your user profile you've been a landscaper for 6 years. Since you were 13 apparently.. At least according to your post on the firewood and heating section, you said you were 19. By that logic, I'll count my cub scout birdhouse that I made at 9 or 10 as the beginning of my woodworking career. That means I've been woodworking for 31 or 32 years then. I'll stick with what I have given the test of time, not what some woodworking mag says.
Like I said at the beginning of this post, every woodworker does things differently. The difference is, some build pieces to last generations, while others don't care how long it lasts. Or believe everything they read.

Wow. This thread really took off....

I have to agree with Stony here on the technical aspects of this argument. On fresh, perfectly fitted joints nearly all tests have proven the glue is stronger than the wood. The problem is PVA glues will creep and weaken over years of seasonal movement and hide glues embrittle with age. I've done a few 100+ year old furniture restorations myself and found the same problem with unreinforced glue joints as Stony did.
 
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