Stihl 3/8 pico vs pico mini chain for an MS170 saw

I'm a homeowner with a couple of acres of woods on my lot. I've owned a Stihl 009 for decades, and recently bought a Stihl MS170 as a second saw. The original Stihl had a .050 in gage 3/8" picco chain and bar, and the new 170 has a .043 in gage pico mini chain and bar. Both came with 14 in bars. I'm thinking of buying a 16 in bar for the MS170.

As I've compared these two saws, I've noted that the 009 chain seems much more aggressive and faster cutting than the MS170. I'm attributing this to the chain, as it seems like it take a lot more down pressure to get the MS170 to cut, and it cuts slower even when the saw is at full speed. I'm assuming that there isn't much difference in power between the two saws.

This has surprised me, as the thicker bar and wider chain on the 009 cuts a wider kerf, and I would have thought that the narrower chain would have cut faster and easier. I have not ruled out that the MS170 chain might not be as sharp as the 009's, and I resharpened it tonight.

Are their any opinions on the pluses and minuses of these two chain types? Which cuts easier and faster when they are both in good condition. Any concerns about either type? I've noticed that the more flexible .043 bar seems to have more problems with binding and twisting when clearing. Is there any concern about going to the 16 inch long .050 in gage bar and chain on an MS170 (Stihl does make one that fits).

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Terry

You'd better get your stop watch out to see the difference. All things being equal, PMMN, PMC, and PS3 saw chain will all cut about the same on your saw. .050 will be a little more durable. Oregon 90S is .043" gauge chain with larger cutters than PMMN. Good luck!

[video=youtube_share;g2c2eht3UoU]http://youtu.be/g2c2eht3UoU[/video]

here is my ms170,,, has the 50 gauge chain and also a wt215 carb along with a MM

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Sr4oqOVyjfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The pole saw chain, the 0.043 gauge drive link one probably is designed to cut smoother. There are less choices and less length of the cutter and less thickness of the tie straps.

If your bars are interchangeable just go and buy two new loops and decide for yourself using the same saw. But you will have to choose picco micro or picco super for the .050 one or get three loops. That is only staying with Stihl chain.

XSKIER said:

You'd better get your stop watch out to see the difference. All things being equal, PMMN, PMC, and PS3 saw chain will all cut about the same on your saw. .050 will be a little more durable. Oregon 90S is .043" gauge chain with larger cutters than PMMN. Good luck!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that information. I guess I'll have a chance to confirm that, now that I resharpened my pico micro mini (.043) chain on the MS170, to the picco micro (.050) on the 009.

I'll report back when that is done.

Terry

o8f150 said:

here is my ms170,,, has the 50 gauge chain and also a wt215 carb along with a MM

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Sr4oqOVyjfE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. That seems to do quite well. I assume from context that the wt215 is a larger than stock carburetor. I'm still stock.

Did you see any difference in cutting between the wider guage chain and the stock .043?

Terry

Franny K said:

The pole saw chain, the 0.043 gauge drive link one probably is designed to cut smoother. There are less choices and less length of the cutter and less thickness of the tie straps.

If your bars are interchangeable just go and buy two new loops and decide for yourself using the same saw. But you will have to choose picco micro or picco super for the .050 one or get three loops. That is only staying with Stihl chain.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input.

The biggest difference I note compared to the pico micro is how much wider the cutter is than the pmm. It seems like the pmm would cut faster for the same horspower because it makes a narrower kerf. But so far, I haven't seen that

I just need to decide which system to use when I buy a new 16 inch bar.

Terry

Choose the one that your dealer supplies more of and for a better price. Then, get the same chain for both saws. Easier to manage logistically and you may need to swap at times.

tquinn said:

Thanks for your response. That seems to do quite well. I assume from context that the wt215 is a larger than stock carburetor. I'm still stock.

Did you see any difference in cutting between the wider guage chain and the stock .043?

Terry

Click to expand...

the cutters are the same its the drivers that are a tad wider,,, the wt215 is the same size carb as the factory,, its a fully adjustable carb

Also, i wouldn't recommend you to get a 16" for the 170 unless you really need the extra reach. 16" is 50cc saw territory imo.

o8f150 said:

the cutters are the same its the drivers that are a tad wider,,, the wt215 is the same size carb as the factory,, its a fully adjustable carb

Click to expand...

I'm wondering if we are talking the same thing. The cutters are dramatically different in height and width. Here is a side-by-side picture:

View attachment 299681

Click photo to blow it up.

T0RN4D0 said:

Also, i wouldn't recommend you to get a 16" for the 170 unless you really need the extra reach. 16" is 50cc saw territory imo.

Click to expand...

On a few rare occasions, I've had to cut large logs, where a 14 inch bare barely made it, cutting from both sides. Once I had to borrow a neighbor's saw, so I thought I might get a little longer one, especially if I'm going to change to the bigger tooth chain.

Are their downsides to having 2 more inches in bar length when I normally would not be using it? Does the extra length itself hurt saw performance when cutting smaller wood?

Terry

(I've used chainsaws for a long time, but obviously I'm not very knowledgeable about these kind of details).

Is this thread supposed to be limited to stihl chain or just in general.

There are Carlton chains that to me seem to be exactly the same cutters with different thickness drive links but generally the cutters are smaller on the 0.043

I put a picture of from top to bottom 63ps3 a chisel .050, then 63pm3 a .050 semi chisel in the middle, and the mini picco 61pmm3 on the bottom.

What I just noticed is the mini one to me the pole saw one is quite a bit lower profile, ie the edge is closer to the bar rail. The chisel one might be a bit lower profile than the one in the middle would really have to mount on a bar and measure.

The husky h35 has smaller cutters than the Oregon vxl if you want to look at brand x same gauge drive link.

If you count the drive links and do the arithmetic there is about an inch and a half difference between a 14 and sixteen inch bar. 52 to 56 for normal 51 to 55 for Stihl but if you use the seven tooth rim sprocket probably 52 to 56 like normal.

tquinn said:

On a few rare occasions, I've had to cut large logs, where a 14 inch bare barely made it, cutting from both sides. Once I had to borrow a neighbor's saw, so I thought I might get a little longer one, especially if I'm going to change to the bigger tooth chain.

Are their downsides to having 2 more inches in bar length when I normally would not be using it? Does the extra length itself hurt saw performance when cutting smaller wood?

Terry

(I've used chainsaws for a long time, but obviously I'm not very knowledgeable about these kind of details).

Click to expand...

Theoretically, the extra 2" will mean more drag from the chain. Practically, I don't know how much difference you would notice.
I personally would put no more than a 14" on that saw, but I have plenty of larger saws when required.
If you truly need the extra reach of a 16" then go for it, but make sure that you keep your chains good and sharp and be aware that when fully buried, that little saw will be working hard.

Karl Robbers said:

If you truly need the extra reach of a 16" then go for it, but make sure that you keep your chains good and sharp and be aware that when fully buried, that little saw will be working hard.

Click to expand...

I do understand that. These are small saws that on rare occasions I use for a medium application, like felling a tree or making the last few cuts on the stump. I try to avoid overloading the engine by rolling the saw around the cut so that it doesn't load all the teeth at once.

Terry

tquinn said:

I'm a homeowner with a couple of acres of woods on my lot. I've owned a Stihl 009 for decades, and recently bought a Stihl MS170 as a second saw. The original Stihl had a .050 in gage 3/8" picco chain and bar, and the new 170 has a .043 in gage pico mini chain and bar. Both came with 14 in bars. I'm thinking of buying a 16 in bar for the MS170.

As I've compared these two saws, I've noted that the 009 chain seems much more aggressive and faster cutting than the MS170. I'm attributing this to the chain, as it seems like it take a lot more down pressure to get the MS170 to cut, and it cuts slower even when the saw is at full speed. I'm assuming that there isn't much difference in power between the two saws.

This has surprised me, as the thicker bar and wider chain on the 009 cuts a wider kerf, and I would have thought that the narrower chain would have cut faster and easier. I have not ruled out that the MS170 chain might not be as sharp as the 009's, and I resharpened it tonight.

Are their any opinions on the pluses and minuses of these two chain types? Which cuts easier and faster when they are both in good condition. Any concerns about either type? I've noticed that the more flexible .043 bar seems to have more problems with binding and twisting when clearing. Is there any concern about going to the 16 inch long .050 in gage bar and chain on an MS170 (Stihl does make one that fits).

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Terry

Click to expand...

I usually recommend folks go with the .050 ga., as the cutters on the .043 are too thin and bend easily, and those that have switched seem to
agree with me.

Fish said:

I usually recommend folks go with the .050 ga., as the cutters on the .043 are too thin and bend easily, and those that have switched seem to
agree with me.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. My limited experience supports yours. I haven't put many hours on the MS170 with the .043 bar, but I seem to have had more trouble with the chain and bar getting a little bent sideways (flexing and tending to bind the chain more) than I ever had with years of using the .050. But maybe I just had some bad exeriences with it early, as nobody else has reported that as being a problem.

Terry

Need to verify sharpening parameters for Picco and Picco Mini

I'm going to follow Franny K's recommendation and try both the 3/8ths picco and pico mini on my MS170, and see how they compare. To do that I want to be sure I've sharpened the pico mini chain I have to the right specs. So I was looking through the owner's manuals of My 009 and MS170 saws, and I saw what might be conflicting information in the MS170 manual.

So as best I can determine, the 3/8ths Picco chain, which has a 0.050 in gage, uses a filing angle of 35 degrees, although the 009 manual says for hardwood or frozen timber, to reduce that to 30 degrees. It also shows the depth gage setting as 0.65 mm (with a comment that it could be increased to 0.85 mm for cutting softwood in mild weather).

For the 3/8ths inch picco mini, which has the 0.043 in gage, the MS170 manual calls for a 30 degree filing angle. For the depth gage, it is not clear if they are recommending 0.45 mm or 0.65 mm depth gage setting.

The confusion is that in some places I've heard terminology of "picco micro mini" which I've assumed matches a .043 inch gage chain type of PMM or PMMC3. Elsewhere I read references to PMN, which some people call "picco micro narrow." I don't know if this is different terminology for the same chain type, or two chain types.

Related to that, in my MS170 saw manual, it refers to 3/8 PMN having a depth gage setting of 0.45 mm, and both a 3/8th PM and PMMC3 as each having 0.65 mm depth gage. So if PMN and PMMC3 are both describing picco micro mini, which of these two depth settings are correct?

Thanks for any help in interpreting Stihl-speak.

Terry Quinn

This PDF will help you have the sharpest saw chain in your neighborhood, and be more Stihl saw chain smart than anyone on AS:

http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/...s/STIHL-Sharp-Advice-Saw-Chain-Guide-Bars.pdf

The sharpening angles you need are always printed on the saw chain packaging, in the file guides' instructions, or with the depth gauge guide.

tquinn said:

Thanks for the input. My limited experience supports yours.

Terry

Click to expand...

Well, I have been working on and selling this stuff for a while. If I get drug out on the sales floor, I recommend that they go with the .050 ga.
setup, they are usually pissed if they bring in their .043 gauge chain for sharpening and see that %90 of the cutters are bent, and to rectify the
problem will take a new bar along with a new chain...............

These guys are not doing timed cuts in a competition, but folks that want to cut up some small trees......