441 vs 440 BB

[Wild Knight]

I posted the before and after video of my ported 441 in a previous thread. After running it, we wondered how it compared to the 440 with a big bore kit (Erick ported this saw too of course.) This necessitated us spending some free time yesterday putting the saws through their paces. We cut everything from black locust to pine to basswood just playing around. We found where the saws were holding their RPM best in the cut and used this setting for our test. Interestingly, both the strato and non-strato design were holding best between 14,400 and 14,900 RPM, but then again both saws were ported by the same guy for the same purpose.

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Both saws were ported with the intent that they would remain work saws and not all-out racers. Basically, they were built for torque so that the saws would maintain higher RPM in the cut (though they will both spin at very high RPM without load). Accordingly, we tested them with what we would use in the field: 7 pin rim and RSC chain. We also tested them with an 8 pin rim and 9 pin rim to see how well the saws held their power, i.e., how much torque are they really producing. Even if two saws perform the same with a 7 pin rim, you'll see differences and, ultimately, which saw is making more power as you increase the torque demands. We cut three passes with a 7, 8 and 9 pin on each saw, running the same bar and chain on both saws for all cuts. Lastly, we run a bone-stock 440 with RSC chain on an 8 pin for a secondary comparison.

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Listen to the throttle response of the ported 441; it is extremely fast. While this may be due to the 4-port transfers, it is noticeably faster than the 440.


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Compared to the stock saw, both the 440 BB and 441 are 45% faster than a stock saw. Holy smokes!

Under work conditions, the two ported saws are performing exactly the same. While I have statistical programs at my disposal, the eyeball test here seems sufficient to analyze this. The only difference between the two saws is observed with the 9 pin. The 441 begins to separate itself from the 440 BB, as the strato saw is still holding its cut times while the non-strato is slowing down (441 is 17% faster).

I have to admit, I have to eat a little crow myself. In the 441 vs 460 debates, I have recommended a time or two that if you plan to port and mod, then get the 460. If you plan to run stock, get the 441. Well, I'd say the 441 mods as well if not better than the 440 and 460.

 

[Tzed250]

.

Great post and videos!

Flywheel inertia can have as much to do with throttle response as many other factors.


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[Stihl here]

Bad ass!!!

 

[WoodChuck'r]

Excellent post Wild Knight, excellent.

The 441 is by far (to me) probably the most impressive saw when ported. ESPECIALLY when one is comparing it to it's stock performance.

My neighbor (the westspartan) had his 441 Snellerized and it's out of this world how much torque and speed that 70cc saw has.

The future of these strato saws being ported is really going to knock others back in their seat when they find that (when ported) these saws are a completely different animal.

Once again, great post.

:greenchainsaw:

 

[AUSSIE1]

Good onya. Interesting vids.

 

[blsnelling]

It sure is interesting to see how the 441's reputation is changing. Like you mentioned, it's been fed to us that it doesn't take well to mods. I had the same experience with the little Ryobi/Redmax strato 40cc saw. It responded tremendously well to mods. The 362 did good too. What's not to like?

As you also pointed out, it's going to take a lot bigger wood to really tell the difference in the two ported saws. The 9-pin rim starts to give you an idea of that. Even then, you noted the excellent throttle response of the 441. Again, what's not to like?

Thanks for posting the vids

 

[Erick]

Nice write up C.

It was fun playing with the saws yesterday, that 441 is getting along nicely that’s for sure. Now you just to go find some poor unsuspecting 660 to beat up on.

I was pretty interested in the RPM results, that 441 is kind of a strange bird for sure. I worked both of these saws for the same purpose and they both meet that purpose well. What I thought was strange is how the 441 acts at wide open tuning. That saw is four stroking HARD out to about 14,800-15,000 which is exactly what I expected when I built this saw, target was about 15,000 max. Funny thing is it will also continue to four stroke on out to about 16,000 yep you read that right I said 16,000 but it's a different kind of a four stroke???? It sounds like a leaner 4-stroke out past about the 15,200 mark, I really expected to see the cut times fall off about that point but surprisingly the 15,500 was the fastest time. :dunno:

This saw works pretty comfortable at 14,500 and if you don't keep a good load on it it will fall back to just a hint of four stroking in the wood.

Bottom line is this thing will port with the best of them and I would even go as far as to say this saw was easier to find gains in than a standard two stroke.

Bring on the stratos!!!!

 

[Termite]

Good post Wild Knight. I like your sweat shirt too.

 

[Erick]

Good post Wild Knight. I like your sweat shirt too.

That was me. There was some talk a while back about me being inducted into the Ohio chainsaw mafia..... aka "The ODP" just wanted to let everybody know where I stand….. gotta represent ya know

 

[mdavlee]

Nice videos. Looks like those 441s are taking over for the 440s.

 

[Terry Syd]

Throttle response

Great tests guys!

I expect that the more rapid throttle response of the 441 is due to when the strato port butterfly opens and gives a rapid increase in the area of flow. When both the throttle and strato butterflys are open it's like mounting dual carbs on an engine.

In regards to the 441 being able to retain its torque better with the 9 pin, were both saws ported with the same intake duration? The reason for the question is that with the extra intake flow area of the strato port, a strato should theoretically be able to flow more air with less duration than a single port - thus a slight reduction in intake duration could give the same flow as a conventional engine, but with more ability to retain torque.

Re: the change in mixture tuning at higher speeds, it may be that the carb will hit a point of restricted fuel delivery as the revs climb (set orifice of the H needle on the seat), however the open strato port just keeps moving more air as the revs climb. The combination results in a leaning out as the revs climb past a certain point of fuel delivery by the carb.

 

[WoodChuck'r]

I have one thing to say to those who say you can't port a 441...

 

[epicklein22]

Where did the other tread go? No duplicates?

 

[the westspartan]

As some others have stated, get them into some big wood and let the torqy 441 REALY shine. I spent a couple hours bucking and noodling some dry 32" oak yesterday and you could just lay on that thing and it would pull right on through.

Most of the comparisons I have seen on here as of late have been against saws with a 5 to 10 cc advantage. Imagine what a 461 or, dare I say 661 would be like:jawdrop: ported of course

 

[WoodChuck'r]

:agree2:

 

[whitemountain]

As some others have stated, get them into some big wood and let the torqy 441 REALY shine. I spent a couple hours bucking and noodling some dry 32" oak yesterday and you could just lay on that thing and it would pull right on through.

Most of the comparisons I have seen on here as of late have been against saws with a 5 to 10 cc advantage. Imagine what a 461 or, dare I say 661 would be like:jawdrop: ported of course

Have we heard anything new one the 461?

 

[WoodChuck'r]

Have we heard anything new one the 461?

Nope. The 291, 311, and 391 are the next saws that are next in the lineup.

It's so non existent it's not even "the 461" yet. It's just "the 460". One day, keep your fingers crossed, one day.

 

[Arrowhead]

Great thread! The different sprocket size was a great test. I'd like to see a pic of the old blue ford with the mudders. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Wild Knight]

Where did the other tread go? No duplicates?

Not sure what you mean. The other link goes to the 441 build thread. No, they are not duplicates.

 

[stihlboy]

Great thread! The different sprocket size was a great test. I'd like to see a pic of the old blue ford with the mudders. :hmm3grin2orange:

he wont sell it..... i already asked