SawTroll
Information Collector
Then there is the qustion of a low-vibe chassis or not on the chain - some care, others doesn't. I am among the ones that care, but I am not a fanatic about the issue......
disappointed iin windsor chain
- Thread starter gilraine
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KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
That's what I don't understand. It's not like the nature of trees or the questions asked of chain manufacturers have changed a great deal over nearly a century, in which time we've put people on the moon, and done so many technologically advanced things, yet not one chain manufacturer has the skills or knowledge or money to nail at least all the basics? Are they so complacent, the industry riddled with so much easy money or legacy investments that someone has yet to nail it? Or is it just that people being people are subjective at the best of times, or?
I mean, heck, if we as consumers can't objectively agree on who makes the best chain, then we've probably only got ourselves to blame for the myriad overkill choices floating around now.
masculator
ArboristSite Guru
It comes back to the fact that If someone developed the perfect chain you would only ever buy one and the manufacturer would go broke. Personally I think most chain out there is of a reasonable quality and is capable of getting the job done. Despite the fact that is not perfect in some consumers eyes, lets face it, it works and it is a hell of a lot better than what was around 40 or 50 years ago.
A number of years ago I designed a cutter set (imagine a four side moulder) that would cut faster and last at least 10 times longer than what any of the other companies were selling, After much deliberation the boss told me (despite the fact I had made the prototypes) to scrap the idea as it would send him broke cause we wouldn't make any money sharpening it, so we continued to manufacture a slightly higher quality product to what the opposition were manufacturing and made money out of sharpening and re tipping.
Bob Wright
Addicted to ArboristSite
Same with saws. We can't agree on one brand either to put our one branded chain on LOL...Bob
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
That happens in so many industries. Ultimately, I can't help but feel it's a self-defeating, free market inefficiency we are all paying for. It's all about the $ and not enough of us are concerned about the resources being consumed in pursuit of that almighty dollar.
Here in NZ we are flooded by crap products that abuse the worlds resources making them, are shipped around the world to us only so thay can fail so we can work longer hours to repeatedly buy more of them to replace the dead ones, and then pay to throw the said failed products into the landfill or recycling. I know this sounds like tinfoil hat conspiracy theory stuff and it's way off topic, sorry, but it's quite astounding how conditioned to accepting this ridiculous cycle we have all become.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Am I right in believing Blount owns Orgeon, Windsor, Carlton, and that effectively a duopoly between itself and Stihl exists for saw chain?
Also, where are the independent bodies or those representing chainsaw users? Do they exist and are they giving independent, objective test-based appraisals of the performance and longevity of saw chain?
I've see test reports that put some Chinacom chain ahead of some well known brands. There's more to many a buying decision than just quality and price alone, but those are two fairly good starting points.
I used to do a huge amount of business with China and travel there frequently and have seen some tragic human and environmental abuses. Similarly though, I've seen some astoundingly brilliant and 'aware' businesses there too and if the latter were making great chain, how many of us would be objective enough to give them respect for it?
And more to the point, how would we ever know unless there was an independent body testing this for us? If there isn't one, who's willing to pitch in a few $ to have the testing done and we'll get it done? I'll put in US$50 to start the kitty.
Also, where are the independent bodies or those representing chainsaw users? Do they exist and are they giving independent, objective test-based appraisals of the performance and longevity of saw chain?
I've see test reports that put some Chinacom chain ahead of some well known brands. There's more to many a buying decision than just quality and price alone, but those are two fairly good starting points.
I used to do a huge amount of business with China and travel there frequently and have seen some tragic human and environmental abuses. Similarly though, I've seen some astoundingly brilliant and 'aware' businesses there too and if the latter were making great chain, how many of us would be objective enough to give them respect for it?
And more to the point, how would we ever know unless there was an independent body testing this for us? If there isn't one, who's willing to pitch in a few $ to have the testing done and we'll get it done? I'll put in US$50 to start the kitty.
masculator
ArboristSite Guru
So why promote supporting a few people getting rich in china at the expense of the people doing the work for them???
At the end of the day companies like Stihl or Husqvarna or oregon have a major share of the market for a reason and it is not just the quest for the almighty dollar as you say, It is because they invest back a lot of money in research and developement, not just of the finished product but also the production processes. it is because of these improvements and innovations, and the fact that they use quality employees and keep them by paying them well that they have been here for as long as they have and will be for a long time to come. I bet that a lot of the companies out of china that are manufacturing the cheap crap saws appearing on ebay and the like will not be around half as long.
you talk about conservation of resources, this is one area stihl works heavily in and also environmentally friendly products like their fully biodegradeable bar oil, and it is why they produce a quality product, that although it may cost a little more than the chinese equivalent, can be relied upon and used for a long time before it is worn out rather than thrown out prematurely because the cheap piece of rubbish fell to bits, blew up or broke and would cost more to repair than replace.
Personally I am yet to see anything really decent come out of china that has not been controlled by the Parent company outside of china and had it manufactured to their quality control standards. I see a lot of steel coming out of china and compared to what is manufactured in australia, europe, japan or america it is rubbish, they add lead to it to make it heavier and the stuff is as soft as snot. the better steel you can tap a thread into, not so the chinese rubbish, I have seen precision milled bar stock that you cannot slide a bearing on to because it is three sided instead of round.
Personally you may call it prejudice, but if a quality renowned company was getting a "quality" chain produced in china and oversaw the quality control of said product, I would possibly buy it, however when it comes to things like chainsaw chain I will not buy something that is quality controlled by a chinese manufacturer, because I have not seen anything come out of a chinese manufacturer of a high enough quality. This doesn't mean I won't buy anything chinese because I do, but when it comes to something that has the potential to kill, maim or dismember myself or others around me I would rather buy a product from a company that has backing and will not just shut up shop when I sue them for said injuries, and also know that I am more than likely safe because of the money that they have spent researching, developing and using quality materials and processes in the manufacture of said product.
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MCW
Somebody's talking crap here & it ain't the tree!
I've been a free independant test body mate for some non knock off Chinese chain and it's good stuff
No foreign parent company, all guages in semi and full chisel, and it's proving to be basically as good as any other chain I've run. Am I going to sell it? No, I don't need to but I have used it nearly exclusively myself in some pretty tough conditions for months now with no issues.I've broken Carlton chain plus other well known brands as well. Chainsaw chains break sometimes regardless of who makes them.
Why am I running it? Curiosity more than anything. I've tried Chinese bars from two manufacturers and they were crap. I've run and sold other piston and cylinder kits and the quality was excellent on all but some of the 372XP BB kits. These kits were replaced for free. China is an absolute minefield of 80% crap products, 15% mediocre, and 5% good. I've worked through my fair share of the first two to ensure that the vast majority of what I run and sell is in that last 5%
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Therefor it doesn't exist?
An independent testing body, whether or not they speak with an Aussie accent, would be able to verify beyond doubt what is and isn't good quality.
Is there such that everyone will agree with? If it's Matt, great, I look forward to the findings being published
And if they find a Chinacom or any product from anywhere for that matter of high quality (sharp, stay sharpy long time, vely little strletch, no breaky) then one would have to consider a fair level of R&D (no sane person could ever consider all manufacturers in any country they may not like do not invest in such) had gone into that product (or they are tremendous copiers).
There's more to a product than quality and price, but they are pretty good starting points. Personally, I'd need to feel assured the company that makes the well priced, high quality chain I was looking to buy based on independent tests (or my own for that matter), wasn't raping or poisoning the environment, and was doing more than window dressing to look after it's employees. To me, that's worth paying more for. But how do we know without someone we trust giving us those assurances.
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
I've been a free independant test body mate for some non knock off Chinese chain and it's good stuff
I've broken Carlton chain plus other well known brands as well. Chainsaw chains break sometimes regardless of who makes them.
Why am I running it? Curiosity more than anything. I've tried Chinese bars from two manufacturers and they were crap. I've run and sold other piston and cylinder kits and the quality was excellent on all but some of the 372XP BB kits. These kits were replaced for free. China is an absolute minefield of 80% crap products, 15% mediocre, and 5% good. I've worked through my fair share of the first two to ensure that the vast majority of what I run and sell is in that last 5%
That was pretty much my role for years- weeding out the crap and getting to those 5%-ers that were worth dealing with, on behalf of Westerners in NZ, Aus, Can, US. Nothing like personal, unscheduled inspections and random lab testing for pre-specified requirements long before target ship dates. I've seen rivers of pollution that would make most dry reach from 500m away...and people washing themselves and clothes in 'em, factories belching unfiltered crap into the rivers and air, bars on factory windows and locks on doors (and that's not to stop people breaking in), and urine bottles on floors under workers work benches, etc. Not something shown to many yang guizi. Then I've seen bosses who genuinely care about their staff, their conditions, the environment (within as much as they can control themselves anyway). It's no coincidence the latter also care enough about their products to seriously spend on R&D and mind-boggling manufacturing lines of astounding quality. Their pricing is higher but they are the real deal.
Can't say I've seen that in chains mate, but curiosity has me very keen to try a loop the next time around, please, if ever you could be persuaded to part with one ;-)
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tdi-rick
Addicted to ArboristSite
Getting back OT, this from Gregg from Baileys in another thread today
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/171496.htm#post2935783
http://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/171496.htm#post2935783
Justsaws
Addicted to ArboristSite
So the Windsor chain in 3/8 x .063 should have the same cutters on it as Oregon LGX? Have not seen ANY of that.
That would be sweet as it is about a 3/4s the cost of Oregon around here, in premade loops.
Oregon makes lots of cutters, some better than others.
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KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Spoil sport! We were just getting into our stride.
dingeryote
Blueberry Baron
A while back an Oregon Rep told me flat out that they were back ordered 30 days production on chain, and had been for years.
The aquisition of Carlton and windsor was for production capacity, and both Carlton and Windsor chain wasn't long for the world, as the production capacity was needed for the Oregon line alone.
I wonder how long it will be, before Carlton chain is simply relabeled Oregon crap.
Obviously windsor is already under the knife.
Stay safe!
Dingeryote
The aquisition of Carlton and windsor was for production capacity, and both Carlton and Windsor chain wasn't long for the world, as the production capacity was needed for the Oregon line alone.
I wonder how long it will be, before Carlton chain is simply relabeled Oregon crap.
Obviously windsor is already under the knife.
Stay safe!
Dingeryote
KiwiBro
Mill 'em, nails be damned.
Slimey is branding the straps and not the cutters so to put whatever cutter spawned from your inter-brandal mingling on the chain and automatically assume your customers won't know the difference or care?
Go with the one, the only, pure-bred Stihl chain and you can't go wrong? 100% Stihl, not some barstool, Frankenstein child?
:jester:
Go with the one, the only, pure-bred Stihl chain and you can't go wrong? 100% Stihl, not some barstool, Frankenstein child?
:jester:
tdi-rick
Addicted to ArboristSite
I read somewhere that Blount had to maintain some sort of differentiation amongst the three brands to satisfy the Feds when they acquired the two smaller companies.
How long that would last though is like asking how long is a piece of string......
Here the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) would have flat out denied the takeover saying it would be anti-competitive, yet they continue to allow a virtual Supermarket dupoloy who have merged into liquor and fuel retailing (the two big supermarket chains now control 80% of fuel retailing here) and soon hardware
