Horse logging article from Boston Globe

[slowp]

No thank you.

I will state my opinion that elephants are better than horses for logging...higher payload and decking and maybe even loading capability. But I've only worked in the woods since 1976 so would hardly have any knowledge. I better head out now and get some more experience. :silly:

The cute little Thunderbird Yarder is working on some nahsty ground. I'll try to get some photos so we may compare yarders to ponies....

 

[horseloger]

Log butcher, with this point I would agree that elephants would be better than horse if you could get them in the US! But alas that is the case no body here knows how to train them ether and if you brought over trainers from India you would have problems with peda, so i dont think that is a real obtainable idea!
And as far as what bunchgrass is doing yes I know him personally as well as what he is doing and I can assure you he is no sit on his butt type of guy! As for my self I have a crew running everyday and have been in this business for 37 years , And most of that time I have been self employed and managing my own show! And at you dont last that long if you been sitting on your but in this business!
And slowp I no that your cute little yarder can move a lot of wood but look at the aftermath true you guys replant after a operation but the wood you grow is no where near as good as what was there original! As I stated before why are the japs and other foreigner buyers as well as highended buyers in the us paying more for the old growth wood its because its had time to mature ! You are feeding a corporate system that keeps you in dept so that you have to produce for them, so they can sell there machines and parts at a over inflated price and they engineer those machines and prices so that you have to buy new to keep up! So instead of living interdependently as most of us loggers think we do we have a master that whips us into line and deter mens what we make in the from of price fixing and sale manipulation!

 

[logbutcher]

Now there is a practical technique to put this discussion to bed : elephants.
Brilliant .
Hey, even those PNW pros would love them. Large, strong, heavies. :male-fighter1:

So the choice is : diesel or manure. :confusedn: What a choice: you can make Straw Dogs out of manure, but diesel ?

Done. The End.

 

[slowp]

Log butcher, with this point I would agree that elephants would be better than horse if you could get them in the US! But alas that is the case no body here knows how to train them ether and if you brought over trainers from India you would have problems with peda, so i dont think that is a real obtainable idea!
And as far as what bunchgrass is doing yes I know him personally as well as what he is doing and I can assure you he is no sit on his butt type of guy! As for my self I have a crew running everyday and have been in this business for 37 years , And most of that time I have been self employed and managing my own show! And at you dont last that long if you been sitting on your but in this business!
And slowp I no that your cute little yarder can move a lot of wood but look at the aftermath true you guys replant after a operation but the wood you grow is no where near as good as what was there original! As I stated before why are the japs and other foreigner buyers as well as highended buyers in the us paying more for the old growth wood its because its had time to mature ! You are feeding a corporate system that keeps you in dept so that you have to produce for them, so they can sell there machines and parts at a over inflated price and they engineer those machines and prices so that you have to buy new to keep up! So instead of living interdependently as most of us loggers think we do we have a master that whips us into line and deter mens what we make in the from of price fixing and sale manipulation!

Kumbayah Campers! Remain calm. I did not mean to insult you. Each method has its niche. Horses in your area, yarders, skidders, and helicopters here.

I am not a logger, I am a forester that works closely with loggers, and sees that they are doing what is expected and also doing some damage control when they can't do what is expected.

We thin. Commercially thin younger stands. The one that the cute yarder is in, is in an area that was burned over by a forest fire in the early 1900s. The CCC boys replanted quite a bit, and other parts came back naturally.

A lot of folks believe incorrectly that you cannot thin with a skyline. It has been done here since at least the early 1980s. Results vary with the prescription, terrain and logger skill. The latter has improved immensely.

I am aware of only one manufacturer that still makes yarders. So, there is no need to constantly replace them. Parts yes. Since they are logging steep ground, the trees are cut by chainsaw, and usually have to be bucked and limbed by the fallers as well--where I work. Yarding tree length can pose problems in thinnings, so there is no need for a processor--and yes, there are exceptions to this also. A loader is needed, trucks and a crew.

Our local mill buys a lot of logs, corporation or not, they employ a lot of folks and contribute a lot to our community. They are the main employer here. There used to be several sawmills, but we know that story.

That's how it is. I personally like skyline logging. It takes some planning, some grunt work, and I like the cheery whistles. It keeps me in some semblance of shape because I have to go up and down each corridor and spray paint on the extra trees to be cut for the openings. Corridors run ten to twelve feet wide and most non woodsy people can't even see them afterwards.

That's just me. There is no perfect all around logging method. I used the term ponies because ingrained in my brain is a little Shetland Pony that was yarding out four foot lengths of wood for his family. They took him out to the woods a few times each year, to earn his keep and bring in the firewood. He worked just like a big horse. I was impressed. Pony logging...whoda thunk?

 

[horseloger]

Yes skyline logging can do a great job with out much residual damage and they have there place in rough terrain they are the only way ! But the strip cut logging that is done in most parts of the north west and other parts of the world is going too eventually run us out of good timber !
And yes I know that your local mill buys lots of logs and keeps a lot of people in work and I feel thats A good thing too a point! But as you stated in your post they ran all the competition out of business. And why so they could control all these people by controlling the work in the area !

 

[slowp]

Yes skyline logging can do a great job with out much residual damage and they have there place in rough terrain they are the only way ! But the strip cut logging that is done in most parts of the north west and other parts of the world is going too eventually run us out of good timber !
And yes I know that your local mill buys lots of logs and keeps a lot of people in work and I feel thats A good thing too a point! But as you stated in your post they ran all the competition out of business. And why so they could control all these people by controlling the work in the area !

Another misunderstanding. There used to be three mills in this area. Then the crunch hit. The Spotted Owl lawsuits. Two of the mills depended on large, old growth sized logs from Federally owned forests. Those were no longer available for cutting, old growth became off limits, the mills closed down.

An example? This area used to sell 120 million board feet of timber a year. Now it sells 25 million counting firewood. All second growth, no old growth. Something had to give and mills had to shut down.

They did not retool. The surviving mill was already tooled up for smaller diameter logs and is still going although it has changed hands. Nobody ran anybody else out of the area, or controlled the work in the area. Logs also are trucked to mills that are out of our area, sometimes three hours away.

 

[horseloger]

But did not the spotted owl issue become a factor because of the depletion of the old growth forest? And what happened to all the little mills that were prevalent in the 50 and 60tys most were bought up and or ran out with practices as I described before ! And with them went the independent logger just as they did with the small farmer and the Indians its the same old story, get them in dept more and more untill they cant pay and then take what they have left!

 

[slowp]

The old growth was not depleted. A lot got cut, yes. And no, the mill closings had the opposite effect. The larger mills had their own logging crews and they were union crews. When ownership changed, as it did in the case of our local mill, those crews were fired and the work was let out to the smaller, cheaper, independent Gypo loggers.

I do not know if that is a good or bad thing.

 

[horseloger]

I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit!
The same can be said for the new management getting rid of the unions and hiring the gepo crews . They did this so they can control these crews, it was harder to get the union crews to work for less money! I bet they offered to finance most of these crews when they set them up by doing that and being the only mill in the area without a long truck gave them the power to shut the door until they get the consesions that they want! Thats why the unions were put into place in the first place because the lumber barrens were doing the same thing back then that they are doing today and people got together and put a stop to it!

 

[slowp]

You have no idea what has gone on here. Unlike a lot of places, our area grows trees.
That should be the main crop here. We have excellent conditions for growing forests.
Fantastic conditions.

No, the clearcutting did not degrade the land. Our area is lush and productive. Even if the areas were not planted, they would grow back to the first seral species which is Red Alder.

My land and house are on forested land. It is a constant battle to keep the alder from taking over. In fact, I've let it close in a bit. Naturally. No planting.

Geesh. If you looked at the growth rings on an old growth tree, you'd see similar growth to the replanted and young native stands in the beginnings. You cannot compare young second growth to old growth. The two are totally different. If left to grow, for a couple hundred years, that second growth would equal the old growth in quality.

Douglas-fir, which is the primary species here, grows best after a disturbance. You'll find that this area has had forest fires in the past, which cleared the way for Doug-fir to grow.

Around here, old growth trees do not live forever. Look at the Mt St Helens blast area. Look up the history of forest fires. Douglas fir is an early seral species. It arrives on the scene after the alder has started. Alder is a nitrogen fixer.

Our ground does not "gully out". Our soils are volcanic and have lots of organics in them. Landslides will occur in both uncut old growth and plantations. The land recovers quickly in most areas. We do have unstable areas, which are going to slide no matter what.

Our area is prone to natural disasters. We have volcanic eruptions, slides, floods, fires, earthquakes. Doug-fir is tailor made to grow in openings caused by those. If we imitated nature, so be it.

As to the mills paying the gypos to start up operations? That's a good one. Maybe when they auctioned off the equipment to the public, that could be considered subsidizing?

 

[Gologit]

I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit!
The same can be said for the new management getting rid of the unions and hiring the gepo crews . They did this so they can control these crews, it was harder to get the union crews to work for less money! I bet they offered to finance most of these crews when they set them up by doing that and being the only mill in the area without a long truck gave them the power to shut the door until they get the consesions that they want! Thats why the unions were put into place in the first place because the lumber barrens were doing the same thing back then that they are doing today and people got together and put a stop to it!

Have you ever logged out here on the Left Coast? Have you ever traveled this part of the country enough to really see how much timber is gone and how much is left? If not, maybe it's time you did.
I can take you to places that my grandfather logged in the late 1920s and you can see for yourself how much actual regeneration there is. There's an amazing stand of timber there now. If you get out this way I'd be glad to take you on a tour.
Were mistakes made in the old days that scarred the land and caused harm? Yes there were. But those days are long gone...and we've learned from them. Even on our own ground we're held to an extremely high standard when it comes to how we treat the land. We very often spend as much, or more, time on preventing stream siltation and soil erosion during and after a timber sale than we do on the actual harvest itself.

And the big timber barons? They've always been around. If you read back through the history of the logging business you'll see that nothing much has changed. There's still plenty of room for the small independent logger.

The biggest timber company in California employs no actual loggers. None. Every log that comes down the hill was cut by independent logging outfits. Some of them are big outfits...some of them aren't, but they're all independent.

And you're right about it all being about profit. That's exactly what it's about. And it should be. We're not in this business for fun. But we can easily hit a good compromise between profitable logging and responsible logging. We can still make a buck and be good stewards of our land. We can...and we do...every day.

 

[paccity]

:agree2:

Have you ever logged out here on the Left Coast? Have you ever traveled this part of the country enough to really see how much timber is gone and how much is left? If not, maybe it's time you did.
I can take you to places that my grandfather logged in the late 1920s and you can see for yourself how much actual regeneration there is. There's an amazing stand of timber there now. If you get out this way I'd be glad to take you on a tour.
Were mistakes made in the old days that scarred the land and caused harm? Yes there were. But those days are long gone...and we've learned from them. Even on our own ground we're held to an extremely high standard when it comes to how we treat the land. We very often spend as much, or more, time on preventing stream siltation and soil erosion during and after a timber sale than we do on the actual harvest itself.

And the big timber barons? They've always been around. If you read back through the history of the logging business you'll see that nothing much has changed. There's still plenty of room for the small independent logger.

The biggest timber company in California employs no actual loggers. None. Every log that comes down the hill was cut by independent logging outfits. Some of them are big outfits...some of them aren't, but they're all independent.

And you're right about it all being about profit. That's exactly what it's about. And it should be. We're not in this business for fun. But we can easily hit a good compromise between profitable logging and responsible logging. We can still make a buck and be good stewards of our land. We can...and we do...every day.

:agree2: wait for it.

 

[horseloger]

Yes I have been out there and have done some logging out there in the early eighty's and what I have seen has done nothing but discussed me and as far as knowing what Im doing I have a four year forestry degree as well as 30 years in the field ! ! You do have perfect soils for regeneration but the quality of the timber remains the same I cant count how many times I have heard contractors tell me that the wood they received form the west coast and the south was of poor quality and nothing like the wood we used to use as recently as the 80s ! And I cant sell them poplar or soft maple lumber for construction lumber because of agency stamps that Weyerhauser and Potlatch made practicably imposable to get Even plywood dose not last as long or is of the quality that it once was. I come from a family that has been in the wood and lumber business for generations too and they all feel the same way that I do!
I am not trying to pick on the west coast I feel this is nation wide and it is not caused by the hard working men in the field but is done at the coperation level there again to gain profits ! And you may be lucky to have a mill around that dosnt operate in this manor but there are a lot of mills that do!And most of them are corporate giants ! And tell me that the tree that they planted back in the 30tys are equal too the timber that was removed
We can debate this all day but the fact remains that the general public dose not look at it this way ! And if you guys are all working out there why do I see so many gripping about not having work why do they not go out and get these large corp. to let them work independently they supply the yarders and the locals supply the crews? I know there is a slump in the housing market here but china is rebuilding and so are other country's I have inquiry's everyday from overseas brokers that want dimension lumber! And yes there was mistakes made in the past and that is what brought on the spotted owl thing and yes they are making great strides towards getting away from those practices but it will take years to repair the damage done to our industrie in the name of profit! And yes we need profit but my point is most of the profit goes to the big boys and not to the hard working guys in the field !

 

[forestryworks]

I forget what the actual percentage of the old growth that was cut but depleting the original forest to less than 25% which I think is being generous, was the main factor that caused the uproar! Uneven age management could have avoided most of this, but the mills insisted on clear cutting and leaving large gutted tracks of land to gully out with ugly scars left an impact on the public that lasted to this day! And yes I know they replanted allot of this ground but as in the pictures that you just posted the trees in the clear cut that were replanted by the cccs are no where near the quality or size that was originally there nor is the biodiversity there that was once there, and it was all in the name of profit!
!

Old growth doesn't stay old growth forever :monkey:

Managing old growth for a "perpetual state" - as many environmentalists will have you believe is possible - is a forlorn hope. It's impossible.

 

[horseloger]

That is a missnomer too, old growth timber can be managed and should be! By selecting the timber that is overmature and damaged to the point that it is no longer produceing new growth and thining out trees that are to closely spaced can be done on any wood specices. There are many land owners on the west coast and iner mountian region doing so with great scucsess!
And there too are many horse logging opperations on the west coast and they do a wonderful job of thing out trees in this mannor!

 

[logbutcher]

Lunch break......getting the skid paths rid of the 2 feet of snow.

At last, you usual suspects are finally discussing intelligently. No girlish tantrums, no ad hominum attacks ( PM or otherwise Slowp ), no Straw Dogs ( such as boring or GOL or horse logging), none of the prozac anger at other opinions. About time.


Keep it up. It's what discourse based on experience and reality should be.

He likes it.

 

[Gologit]

Lunch break......getting the skid paths rid of the 2 feet of snow.

At last, you usual suspects are finally discussing intelligently. No girlish tantrums, no ad hominum attacks ( PM or otherwise Slowp ), no Straw Dogs ( such as boring or GOL or horse logging), none of the prozac anger at other opinions. About time.


Keep it up. It's what discourse based on experience and reality should be.

He likes it.

Well, what a nice thing to say. I'm sure your approval is just as important to everyone else involved in this discussion as it is to me.

A lot of people on here considered you to be recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time. They considered your opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.
Most of us, including myself, had you figured for something of a jack-ass. We were wrong.
Your're not something of a jack-ass after all...you're a total and complete jackass.

But thanks for the nice words, anyway. We all feel so much better now that we've made you happy.

 

[paccity]

ha!

 

[logbutcher]

Well, what a nice thing to say. I'm sure your approval is just as important to everyone else involved in this discussion as it is to me.

A lot of people on here considered you to be recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time. They considered your opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.
Most of us, including myself, had you figured for something of a jack-ass. We were wrong.
Your're not something of a jack-ass after all...you're a total and complete jackass.

But thanks for the nice words, anyway. We all feel so much better now that we've made you happy.

Nice girl, nice. Now go out and play, beat your dog, or......................

All those sweet words. Such intense all-knowing. Such concentrated semantics. Much have taken a long spell with Webster's. I am happy...now that you're concerned.:excruciating:

Too bad. Back to your group rant girl. Too bad. Time out.

 

[paccity]

:dunno: