Horse logging article from Boston Globe

[floyd]

You should quit while you are ahead. It is obvious by your posts you do not have a clue about animal powered logging.That is OK. It is not for everyone.

But now you have confirmed you need to get out more. Instead of manning up & learning from some criticism you took the low road.

Perception is all there is.

 

[logbutcher]

recalcitrant, argumentative, blindly critical, narrow minded, dogmatic, marginally intelligent, sophomoric and just basically a total waste of time.
opinions to be based on emotion rather than fact, your actual experience level almost non-existent, and your logic totally flawed.

you're a total and complete jackass.

We all feel so much better now that we've made you happy.

:doh: Dear Bobbi and gang :
Sounds like you and the gang have some difficulties ( "flawed logic"
and those "emotions" ) . Sorry about that.
Oh, and get that "experience level" up to standard.
Get better soon.
LB

P.S. Can I join your "Panties in a Wad" group ? Some cumbaya .

 

[hammerlogging]

This horse logging debate is, sometimes, tiring.

But it is an interesting concept as well. When I am looking at a unit, I look at how it ought to be cut (silviculture), how it will be cut (economics) how it ought to be logged (harvest sytem), and how it CAN be logged given certain factors like harvest systems available, and social scrutiny.

Different systems have diffferent advantages and disadvantages, there are physical and economical limitations to different tracts. Appealing to a landowner's emotions (i.e. got to log with horses) is no more respectable or appropriate than appealing to fear (i.e. arborist suggesting tree removal because needs work....) I will use logic and education rather than selling my opinion or appealing to one's emotional preferences. Social constraints to real forestry are real, how we deal with them is up to those of us participating in the industry.

If you want to do the best for the land, the forest and the landowner, look at what % of the job will be recieve significant disturbance from which harvest sytem, which harvest sytems will allow for the best application of silviculture, often with a restorative element forthose with mulitple objectives, and whaat will yield the landowner a competitve value for their timber. If we were to supply societal demands for forest products with animal extraction we would have a severley degraded landscape and far a less proportion of the landscape would recieve legit silvicultural prescriptions

If you were to log with horses the places I have cut for yarders, helicopters, forwarder systems, and so forth, you would have extreme environmental degradation. Each system has its place. Almost everywhere I've cut has been cut before and in the good spots, not since the first time it was logged somewhere between after the civil war and about 1910- when all of Appalachia was done and everyone headed to the lake states, then out west. The logging that occurred then (animal, ground skidding......) would NEVER be allowed now due to environmental degredation. Horses and men and water quality were ENTIRELY disposable, it was not romantic.

Animal powered extraction has its niche. Its a very small niche limited severely by $/ton capability which is dicated principally by slope, skid distance, and avg, stem diameter (stand perameters and prescription applied). Other systems can participate in far better restorative forestry across a far more vast proportion of the landscape.

Niche.

 

[forestryworks]

Excellent post, Joe!

 

[logbutcher]

This horse logging debate is, sometimes, tiring.

But it is an interesting concept as well. When I am looking at a unit, I look at how it ought to be cut (silviculture), how it will be cut (economics) how it ought to be logged (harvest sytem), and how it CAN be logged given certain factors like harvest systems available social scrutiny.

Different systems have diffferent advantages and disadvantages, there are physical and economical limitations to different projects. Appealing to a landowner's emotions (i.e. got to log with horses) is no more respectable or appropriate than appealing to fear (i.e. arborist suggesting tree removal because needs work....) I will use logic and education rather than succumbing to opinions and emotional preferences. Social constraints to real forestry are real, how we deal with them is up to those of us participating in the industry.

If you want to do the best for the land, the forest and the landowner, look at what % of the job will be recieve significant disturbance from which harvest sytem, which harvest sytems will allow for the best application of silviculture, often with a restorative element forthose with mulitple objectives, and whaat will yield the landowner a competitve value for their timber.

Ifyou were to log with horses the places I have cut for yarders, helicopters, forwarder systems, and so forth, you wouuld have extreme environmental degradation. Each system has its place. Almost everywhere I've cut has been cut before and in the good spots, not since the first time it was logged somewhere between after the civil war and about 1910- when all of Appalachia was done and everyone headed to the lake states, then out west. The logging that occurred then would NEVER be allowed now due to environmental degredation. Horses and men and water quality were ENTIRELY disposable, it was not romantic.

Animal powered extraction has its niche. Its a very small niche limited severely by $/ton capability which is dicated principally by slope, skid distance, and avg, stem diameter (stand perameters and prescription applied). Other systems can participate in far better restorative forestry across a far more vast proportion of the landscape.

Niche.

Well done: intelligent, science, 'discussable'.
Thanks.

 

[hammerlogging]

So ,what you're saying is this was less inflamatory than

"My wife says I can hobby around horse logging only after I retire from professional logging"

or, "the last FSC harvest operations audit I participated in, the only logger with significant faults was the horsie guy, who took his system beyond its extremely limited capability"

or, "last time I pulled wood with horsies the owner told me after 3 100' drags to slow down, the little fellas needed a break...."

Yeah, not quite as productive for discussion.

 

[horseloger]

And there again hammerlogging you have know idea of what horse logging is all about ! It is not limited by $ per ton nor slope nor skid distance all those factors can be mitigated by proper knowledge and a little elbow grease
Horse's can be used on slopes that no machine will operate except a yarder Skid distances are handled by dragging to trail from the woods and the forwarding with a trailer And as I have stated before two teams of horses can extract the same amount of logs as a skidder in a day with far less residual damage! And then theres the cost of operation I repeat how may of you can operate $13.33 per day per machine that you use? Dose your machinery repair its self? dose your machine replace its self? Horses will reproduce giving you a new machine every 4 years they heal them selfs in most cases! And most teams are usable well into there 20s ! Yes you are right animals, water ways and humans were expendable in the old days but this was so when machinery came on the scene men were mangled and killed in droves. When the d3 and other tracked type machinery first replaced the horse they were rolled, flipped over back wards and so on trying to get the most timber out with out regard to human life or limb or environmental damage, and this was the same case with the old time horse logging ! This has all changed with regulations and commonsense [ at least some people work with commonsense ] and so has horse logging and as far as intelligent science Purdue university Alabama university Arkansas university North Carolina and Kentucky university have all done study s on horse logging and have all come too the conclusion that it is a practical and economical alliterative to mechanical logging !
And what are you guys out there going to do when fuel gets to $5.00 or more per gal and your jobs will be falling like flys because the mills will not be able too pay that type of money on fuel and lower your wages? Why do more and more lumber company's inquirer in to hiring horse loggers ? And why do most land owners want to use horse logging over mechanical logging when they find out they have the choice!
Man has been using horse's many more years than machinery and has accomplished astronomical projects using draft power so saying it is imposable or not cost effective is totally ignorant

 

[hammerlogging]

knock your socks off homeboy!!!

 

[forestryworks]

:deadhorse:

This thread is done, the goose is cooked.

 

[horseloger]

Its interesting when the facts are presented in a rational manner that the people that oppose the facts want to stop the debate !

 

[logging-guide]

Why fight? We are all loggers

Whether you use a skidder, yarder, or draft animals. We should use our energy to educate the public.

For those of you who love using mechanized equipment such as skidders and yarders, that's great! It works for you and there are many things you can do to harvest timber in a responsible and sustainable way. Which is one thing I think we need to educate the public about. Loggers in general are concerned with the forest they work in. After all we want to go back and harvest that same piece of timber again.

On the other hand I think that there is an incredible opportunity for horse loggers to cash in on the green wave. There is a great horse logging article on about.com explaining just how to do that.

 

[horseloger]

Logging- guide, very well put and you are absulutly right and this is what I am trying to convey! This is not about going back and being nostalgic nor is it about something I do in my retirement or for fun ! We do this everyday and we also get inquires from college's across the country to come learn our techniques so young people can place the old technological with the new to create at better way of harvesting timber, then we may go back in as soon as ten years and re harvest ! Not only that but the timber we harvest 10 years from now will be of greater value because of the way we harvested it!