ID, Stop, Gri Gri

[Lumberjack]

I work entirely from SRT, and I climb SRT. I can't seem to tie a friction hitch that won't lock up with my full 230 pounds on it. I climbed DbRT and the V.T. and Ditzel, and other french prusics without a problem with them locking up.

So anyway, I want to get a decender like the Stop or the ID. What would yall recommend. I have been using a figure 8 and hardlocking it when I want to stop, as any friction hitch will lock up if I put it above the 8.

Oh and it there a SRT lockjack. Would it be recommended.

I climb on Blue Streak.

I found this thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10889&perpage=15&highlight=Petzel+ID

 

[Tom Dunlap]

What hasn't been said before?
In a DdRT system only half your load is on your friction hitch.

There is a good thread on SRT going on at Treeb*zz. Hillbilly just posted a couple of links to studies done by HSA in the UK about ascenders, descenders and backups. Anyone considering using climbing tools should read the articles.

Figure eights are the worst tool for arbos to use for descending. No hope of stopping if you let the rope go free.
Bobbins are a little better but none that I know of are listed for half inch arbo rope. Also, bobbins are known for being slides rather than stops. Even with the right ropes.
Right now the best tool that I can find is the I'd with the right size rope.

Why not get Fly or some other smaller rope? There are some ropes that are called "gym ropes" that are made for use in climbing gyms. They are sometimes called semi-static.

Tom

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I've seen a few SRT working systems, and none of them compare to the traditional loop system with an advanced friction hitch. I'm 250# getting out of the shower (sorry, had to do it ) and the VT using the 3:2 reverse wap after the barrell is the best I've used. Cheap double braid 5/16 rope with fisherman's knots.

The only use I've seen for SRT working is when your jumping up to work on a few specific limbs and will be descending shortly there after, with minimal vertical movement in the tree.

But then if anyone wants to fight their entire weight in the tree all day, hey it's a free country.

 

[hillbilly]

A figure-8 is a descender.

The Stop is a descender with a "let-go-and-you-stop" feature.

The Gri-Gri is a belay device with a "let-go-and-you-stop" feature.
It can also be used for shorter descents.

The I'd is a descender and a belay device which can be
used for work positioning. It has the "let-go-and-you-stop" feature and an anti-panic feature.

The Lock-Jack is a work-positioning device for doubled rope.
Although I would love to see one, there is currently no version of
the Lock-Jack designed for single rope.

Although Treeb*zz is worth a visit anyway, here are the links
I posted:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf

http://www.ropesafety.com/site/technique/RA Testing Paper.pd

 

[hillbilly]

Almost forgot Storrick's review pages of vertical devices:

http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

 

[treeman218]

A couple of things that I don't understand (keeping in mind that my mind is open, I just don't know and that is why I ask):

Why would you
"work entirely from SRT, and climb SRT"?
If you
"can't seem to tie a friction hitch that won't lock up with (your) full 230 pounds on it".
Even though you
"climbed DbRT and the V.T. and Ditzel, and other french prusics without a problem with them locking up."


-Why not use a system that works for you? Sounds like you are working too hard to make your square wheel roll when you really have to take a step back and use the round wheel instead.

 

[treeman218]

This is for the folks that work off SRT:

How do you deal with the rope below you while going over and below branches? Do you pull a bunch of slack in the line or do you use a fair-lead pulley below your ID, gri-gri or whatever. Seems like the added friction would make it a pain to put more rope above your device. It seems like you would need a fairly clean run of rope in whatever part of the tree you are working.

Plus a few comments on the system:

I've ascended with SRT and see value in it but I've never worked directly off SRT for an entire tree. However, I have watched people work a tree using SRT and it seemed lame. It seemed that they ended up using their climbing line more for fall protection than as a tool. It looked like they spent a lot more time climbing the tree than actually taking advantage of their climbing line. It just seemed to be less efficient.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've always been curious about Carl's exclusive use of SRT.

I can't imagine it.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Put this in your "For what its worth" pile.

I've been working off SRT exclusively for most of this season, since spring. In that time I can think of only maybe three trees that I've done using a trad setup. I've concluded that SRT is MUCH less work. There are only a coule of short comings but balanced off against all of the pluses, it makes way more sense.

Now, I know that I'm a huge advocate of SRT so that biases me, but only a little This summer I had a new fellow working for me. He did some climbing but saw me climb a lot. I asked him if he thought that he would rather learn SRT or trad. He said SRT by a long shot.

Working SRT is pretty radical for arbos. But you must know that we are the only working rope profession that works off a dynamic, in the moving sense, rope. The rest of the rope world keeps the rope static, non-moving, and the climber moves on the rope.

I'll make a prediction here: Within a generation there will be a large percentage of arbos that will be working off SRT. Trad or DdRT will be eight-tracked by then. Go ahead and get the heretic fires kindled. It won't make a difference to me, I wear Nomex climbing gear

In SRT rope friction doesn't even exist. The rope stays in postion and the climber moves on the rope. Rope drag doesn't even factor in the equation. Working around, up or under limbs is easier too. When I move around, all I do is grab a long bight of slack and toss it ahead of me. Then, when I come back to the vertical portion of the rope, I just pull the slack along.

Since SRT is 1:1 I'm not pulling rope in and out of my system. To tend slack, I pull half as much rope as you do. Sometimes I don't even have to pull rope. In fact, the only time I pull rope is when I don't have a fall of rope below me. This would be if I were working way off of my lead.

Keep an open mind.

By the way, how many people have ever worked off SRT. I don't mean just ascending SRT, and then making cuts in a straight down descent. Working is moving up and down on the rope.

That's where the conversion starts though. First the climber understands that SRT is much easier for access then pretty soon they're moving laterally when the light bulb goes off. Hmmmm...this is way easier than all of that hitch and false crotch stuff.

Tom

 

[MasterBlaster]

The only SRT I ever use is descending a snag in preparation to throw it. I use a figure 8. I gotta admit whoever sees me do it always reacts the same. "whats that? Never seen that before!"

I would like to see SRT in action. I may like it, also. Dunno.

Carl, does your fancy 5 mg digcam have a mpeg feature? It should. Post yur swinging but in action!

 

[rahtreelimbs]

Tom, you've got me curios about SRT. I, along with another climber cleared a steep hillside this past spring. I used SRT on the job. Although I wasn't actually up in a tree with this setup, it gave me an idea of what it was like to use SRT. What friction device are you using? Thanx, Rich.

 

[treeman218]

I'm definitely interested in climbing with SRT, that's why I'm asking about it. I just like to understand things before I blindly follow.

Tom,
You sort of answered my question about working over limbs. You mentioned that you "grab a long bight of slack and toss it ahead of (you). Then, when (you) come back to the vertical portion of the rope, (you) just pull the slack along."

I suppose that because you are in a 1:1 system you only pull and throw half the slack that a traditional climber minus some sort of fairlead would have to pull and throw. This seems like a disadvantage to the system. You mentioned that this system has a couple of shortcomings, could you list them?

What I'm wondering is in a large spreading tree where you drop down on one side of the tree and then have to work the other side do you climb back up to the top to work the other side? Or do you fight the end of your rope on the other side of the tree? Or do you keep pulling slack as you need it?

Also, you mentioned that rope friction doesn't even exist and rope drag doesn't factor in. I guess I'm wondering about the situations where the fall of your rope runs up 20' above you, over a branch and then down to the ground. it seems that the rope drag might factor in unless you pull a lot of slack but if you pull too much and your rope isn't long enough you will have to go back up and over that limb to utilize your original TIP.

Another thing. I'm going to assume because of all of the talk of increasing the forces at the TIP (not sure what it is called in this system) that the end of the rope is anchored to the base of the tree. Here is the question: considering the fact that the rope is allowed to move back and forth at the TIP, what sort of damage is being done to the tree? I ask this because I've seen the damage that I've done to trees while ascending on SRT.

 

[Tree Machine]

SRT, Static Rope Technique

The 'damage' can only be from friction. This is a result of a stretchy rope, so maybe you want to try something more static.

Like Tom, I prefer a rope that doesn't 'bounce'. I like a fully static line, and a static line doesn't damage the crotch because once set, it only puts down pressure, not friction. Most static lines, especially the kernmantle ones, are rather stiff, but the one I use is supple, and handles exceedingly well. I've got an assortment of ropes, and I try new stuff when it comes out, but one static line has risen to the top of my climbing favor.

I'll let you know what I climb on, and then I'll kick back and wait for the laughter to subside. 1/2" Sampson Stable Braid. Yep. Bull rope, not because of the excessive tensile strength, but because it climbs really well, no stretch, splicable, super durable wear characteristics and when I retire it from climbing purposes, it gets recycled into - you guessed it - lowering line. It's twice the tensile rating of the Fly, but also twice the weight, which might be a drawback for many of you. -TM-

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Sorry guys, I'm heading out of town for a few days to see my sweetie. I don't have enough time to answer the questions.

Go to T*reebuzz and read the threads on SRT too. Search here and the ISA site. There are answers to all of your questions in the archives.

Gotta run

Tom

 

[treeman218]

SRT, Static Rope Technique

The ropes that are being used are not "fully static" so unless you never take your full weight off the climbing line once it is "set" there is bound to be some movement at the TIP and I would assume possible damage.

I'll keep it simple: What do people (particularly Tom who mentioned that they exist) who use this system see as its disadvantages?