centennial60
ArboristSite Member
I have the Yukon SJ my guess is the particulate emissions from it are higher than 5g/hr. On average but it is possible to achieve a smokeless (visible) burn.
Looking for wood furnace
- Thread starter iowa
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brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
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lampmfg
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Just from seeing the design they definitely would be over the 5 gr/hr emissions. However, I agree that they can achieve a smokeless visible burn for awhile during the burn cycle. You wouldn't believe the crazy equipment Intertek used when we underwent the testing process and everything that they could detect.
Easy there big boy.... Is your 1 gr/hr a weighted average on multiple burning or the best reading? If you were indeed meeting 1 gr/hr on weighted average, congratulations... But I need to ask, if that is the case why not certify your furnace to EPA standards? Mmmmm? Perhaps because there is more to it than just some burn cycle and emissions, right?
Our Mini Caddy and Caddy is certified to the EPA wood stove standards of below 7.6 gr/hr. This is actually quite hard to meet since the wood stove standard was designed for the smaller fireboxes and it is quite difficult to pass for a large firebox such as a furnace. The Max Caddy is certified to CSA B415 which is likely to become the new emmission and efficiency standards for furnace for EPA. This is also quite stringent.
So I tell you what. You show me your EPA certification (wood and/or CSA B415) then I'll show you mine!
Finally, lab burning is one thing but the difference of 2-5 g/hr in real life burning is insignificant. Smoke will no come out of the pipe either way. You are not the only one who produces smokeless furnaces. Just saying. We were the first one to come to market 8 years ago with an EPA 'smokeless' furnace and only last year has other players coming onto the market. (Not Kuuma yet)
Finally, we dont want to be compared to uncertified furnaces such as Yukon and others. While they no doubt make decent products, the certification process ensures the consumer knows we have passed stringent and difficult test to achieve this. That's why there's no incentive to post lab results since we met certifications guaranteeing performance. We do not do so for any of our other biomass burning appliances and neither does any industry players that meets a standard. However, I can see why Kuuma would need to do so in this instance.
We've been making wood furnaces for 33 years. We currently 'only' make 3 wood furnaces and 1 pellet furnace. We also make fireplaces, wood & pellet stoves, pellet furnaces, chimney's etc... We have our own level 4 certified lab (only one in the industry) with dedicated lab technicians so we do know a little bit about wood burning.
PS. I never ran your product down. I wonder why you feel at liberty to question ours...
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lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
Never ran your product down and I just stated that I would love to see the actual test results seeing how other furnace would compare.
Here is a link to the completed CAN/CSA B415.1-10 “Performance Testing of Solid-Fuel-Burning Heating Appliances”, which is probably the same exact test you had done for Canadian certification. If you would like to make your all your test results public like we have I'm sure many others would be interested in viewing the information as well.
But I need to ask, if that is the case why not certify your furnace to EPA standards? Because there is no EPA certification for wood furnaces in the US or we would. There is a EPA certification for stoves but not furnaces, but you already know that.
Sorry for comparing you to Yukon because I that was not my intent (only was trying to give examples of other manufacturers/free pr). I understand and hope the rest of the public does as well that your certification puts you on a whole different level than other furnaces who haven't completed any kind of product testing. One has to be pretty confident in their product to shell out the cash necessary to complete the testing process (especially one that has less than 10 employees). :msp_rolleyes:
My point exactly... If you manufactured dump trucks and could get the mileage of a VW Jetta TDI, would you not spend the expense to test to the car standards? What would it tell your consumers? That you have done the impossible, That's what!!!
Basically, we tested to wood stoves because we could... The reason there was no EPA standards for wood furnace is because none of them could meet the stove standards. Being able to take a large furnace fire box and make it as efficient and clean burning as a small stove is a feather in our cap that no one has been able to replicate until last year. It's a bragging right we've worked hard to accomplish.
Also very few people can look at lab results and understand what it means. I have seen some MFG claim high efficiencies and low emmission on their best burn out of 4 (typically high burn). Unless you knew how to interpret the results you may not know they failed miserably the rest of the tests. Typically you will see them advertised as "tested to... EPA/CSA". In other words they were tested to these standards but did not pass. Once you pass and are certified only then are we allowed to use the EPA and/or CSA logo's on all our marketing.
While the average consumer may not understand lab results they certainly understand certifications.
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iowa
Addicted to ArboristSite
Anyways. I bought a kuuma vaporfire because I believe its the best on the market. At the end of the season I'll snap a pic of my stove pipe through my damper. Right now its clean. I've only burned 8 pieces of wood though. But at its hottest last night my stove pipe was maybe 200 degrees. What does this mean? Means the kuuma extracted all usable energy from my hard earned wood and produced good heat without creosote! My other furnace would have had creasote running from the seams after a night of running. And that's on the same wood that's been sitting 2yrs!
Kids and I filled my 6x8 trailer full of wood and brought some in. The way this weather is it should last until Feb! Bahhhhh
Kids and I filled my 6x8 trailer full of wood and brought some in. The way this weather is it should last until Feb! Bahhhhh
Constrictor
ArboristSite Operative
Iowa and myself started the wood stove journey at the same time 4 years ago and I started right off with an EPA certified wood stove and I've been trying to get him to upgrade ever since. My stove doesn't smoke. Why would he use less wood than me?
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Boy you guys are lucky that CK hasn't been around here lately, the fur would really be flyin now! :hmm3grin2orange:
iowa
Addicted to ArboristSite
Ya. Where is Crappie Keith!
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
I have heard from a pretty good source that he doesn't work for Yukon anymore at this time.
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
I think the Kuuma boys recruited him and are keepin it on the DL! :hmm3grin2orange:
iowa
Addicted to ArboristSite
If you can't beat em, join em!
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
This would come down to efficiency if all variables are the same (size, insulation, temperature). An overall efficiency in the 80's like we have is very high when burning wood. A lot of people don't understand combustion efficiency, but after reading that link you can see that with a proven combustion efficiency over 99% we basically extract all of the useful fuel out of each piece of wood.
lampmfg
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
For manufacturers to run and have their woodburning furnaces tested to EPA standards that are designed for woodburning stoves is rather foolish and a waste of money. I am sure we'd all agree that furnaces and stoves are different. Woodburning stoves have much smaller fireboxes, usually no blower systems (at most a small blower), and are made to heat smaller areas. Whereas woodburning furances have larger fireboxes, larger blower systems and are designed to heat entire homes and buildings. Do you think a semi-truck and a car should be tested to the same standards? Try parallel parking a semi truck the way you would a car for a test. They are designed for different purposes and have different physical makeups. The same goes for furances vs. stoves.
The EPA test for woodburning furnaces won't be in place until 2014-15. All indications to date are that the EPA is smart enough to know that the tests they will require for furnaces will be different than those currently used for stoves.
Also, when woodburning stoves are tested they use 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's of Doug fir that are cleated with spacers that are nailed to them. No one in their right mind uses cleated wood in a real world situation, so it's very foolish to test furnaces differently than the normal burning procedure for them. As an example, would you pull up to a gas station and fill up with regular gas in your car if the manufacturer's instructions specify only unleaded gas? The vehicle would not operate or perform the way the manufacturer designed it to work.
Our Vapor-Fire furnaces are designed to be loaded with regular with stick firewood after the coals have been pulled forward and the result is a clean front to back burn. That's why the emissions are less than 1 gr./hr.
Daryl Lamppa
Lamppa Manufacturing
The EPA test for woodburning furnaces won't be in place until 2014-15. All indications to date are that the EPA is smart enough to know that the tests they will require for furnaces will be different than those currently used for stoves.
Also, when woodburning stoves are tested they use 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's of Doug fir that are cleated with spacers that are nailed to them. No one in their right mind uses cleated wood in a real world situation, so it's very foolish to test furnaces differently than the normal burning procedure for them. As an example, would you pull up to a gas station and fill up with regular gas in your car if the manufacturer's instructions specify only unleaded gas? The vehicle would not operate or perform the way the manufacturer designed it to work.
Our Vapor-Fire furnaces are designed to be loaded with regular with stick firewood after the coals have been pulled forward and the result is a clean front to back burn. That's why the emissions are less than 1 gr./hr.
Daryl Lamppa
Lamppa Manufacturing
iowa
Addicted to ArboristSite
I was told by some idiot that a wood stove and wood furnace are the same!?!?! I've never seen a wood stove with a big firebox, squirrel cage fan, outer cabinet, heat exchangers, and plenum. I said that's like comparing a car to an airplane. They both use a fuel but do completely different things. I use my furnace like an airplane to heat(travel) my entire house (world). I would use a stove to heat(travel) a small room(small area).
What really gets me is the guys who try to use a stove as a furnace!!! LOL. And I had my furnace shipped to my work. So it sat here a couple days. You should have heard all the comments from guys. 75% didn't understand how it worked after they told me exactly how it worked and what it was! One guy was very adament about telling me the squirrel cage fan was a great idea to stoke the fire! Another said it looked like a nice OWB! But was wondering why it was so small. After a day of trying to explain how it worked I got sick of repeating myself. I just agreed with them and said "yup" a lot!
What really gets me is the guys who try to use a stove as a furnace!!! LOL. And I had my furnace shipped to my work. So it sat here a couple days. You should have heard all the comments from guys. 75% didn't understand how it worked after they told me exactly how it worked and what it was! One guy was very adament about telling me the squirrel cage fan was a great idea to stoke the fire! Another said it looked like a nice OWB! But was wondering why it was so small. After a day of trying to explain how it worked I got sick of repeating myself. I just agreed with them and said "yup" a lot!
WidowMaker
Addicted to ArboristSite
======
Google his name, seems as he may have stepped on his "Tally Wacker"
Maybe building a new home in the next year or, and I think I have found my wood furnance...
brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
And?...
WidowMaker
Addicted to ArboristSite
===
And,
The Vapor 200, seems like a no brainer to me.
I was pretty well set on a Blaze King,
but this thread has just about changed my mind...
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brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
Betcha a plate of Christmas cookies this reply gets a "like" from lampmfg! :msp_biggrin:
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