Round Filing

[Gypo Logger]

Here's more info on the subject.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/goofy-filing-round-filing-or-grinding.142167/

 

[Duane(Pa)]

Does self feed come from the rakers or the plate angles?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Does self feed come from the rakers or the plate angles?

Good question. The self feeding comes from a perfect marriage between all moving parts mounted on a good bar when the cutters and rakers are working together in perfect unison with adequate barlube and a strong power head.
John

 

[2dogs]

I agree with Gypo here that it is the combination of all the components that make a saw such an efficient tool. Too many people talk about modifying their saw to gain more power and thus faster cuts but neglect the basic cause of slow cutting... a less than sharp chain. You can set the rakers with a gauge, lets say at 0.030 for a large saw in softwood or use the "soft" setting on Husqvarna gauges, and make that part of sharpening a non-variable component while you concentrate elsewhere, let's say maintaining the proper hook. Once you can set the hook then concentrate on an exact, reproducible angle. And so on, only changing one variable at a time until your chain cuts well. Of course try to run other guys' saws and ask to watch them sharpen their chain. Try out various guides and gadgets too.

Bottom line? Never stop learning and always run synthetic oil at 50:1 with 87 octane.

 

[KG441c]

I agree with Gypo here that it is the combination of all the components that make a saw such an efficient tool. Too many people talk about modifying their saw to gain more power and thus faster cuts but neglect the basic cause of slow cutting... a less than sharp chain. You can set the rakers with a gauge, lets say at 0.030 for a large saw in softwood or use the "soft" setting on Husqvarna gauges, and make that part of sharpening a non-variable component while you concentrate elsewhere, let's say maintaining the proper hook. Once you can set the hook then concentrate on an exact, reproducible angle. And so on, only changing one variable at a time until your chain cuts well. Of course try to run other guys' saws and ask to watch them sharpen their chain. Try out various guides and gadgets too.

Bottom line? Never stop learning and always run synthetic oil at 50:1 with 87 octane.

Heck no!!!! 32:1!!!

 

[MustangMike]

I agreed with everything till he got to the fuel, I run 93 octane and 40:1, no problems.

 

[Duane(Pa)]

Good question. The self feeding comes from a perfect marriage between all moving parts mounted on a good bar when the cutters and rakers are working together in perfect unison with adequate barlube and a strong power head.
John

ZEN...

 

[KG441c]

I agreed with everything till he got to the fuel, I run 93 octane and 40:1, no problems.

Be wise and pour 32to1 in everything ported

 

[Gypo Logger]

I think you're right about some members wanting power to make up for a so-so chain. Walt Galer said the faster the saw the better the dirt works. Lol
Obviously cutting goes on in every imaginable abrasive situation where they don't have a choice but to cut with a sub par chain.
John

 

[Duane(Pa)]

Good question. The self feeding comes from a perfect marriage between all moving parts mounted on a good bar when the cutters and rakers are working together in perfect unison with adequate barlube and a strong power head.
John

And, in the case of my 038, gravity may have something to do with it too....

 

[Trx250r180]

Good question. The self feeding comes from a perfect marriage between all moving parts mounted on a good bar when the cutters and rakers are working together in perfect unison with adequate barlube and a strong power head.
John

Have a square semi skip i hand filed to touch up ,rakes are set real good right now ,I will have to measure them see where they are at ,was squaring up some 14 inch alder on the mill last night ,could cut one handed and it was real smooth ,the weight of the saw was all it needed to feed ,Maybe i will take some pics of this chain ,it sure works good on one of my hybrid 440's

Edit i also did a dumbass move ,put the chain on backwards on the 660 ,took me a bit to figure out why it was cutting so slow ,lol

 

[Gypo Logger]

And, in the case of my 038, gravity may have something to do with it too....

Yes! But just think! If you get the big Piltz dogs on that 038 you can one hand it all day long! Lol

 

[Chris-PA]

I think one of the best things a beginning hand filer can do is clamp the bar in a vice.

I think the best thing any hand filer can do is use a chain vice rather than using the bar at all. I found it a huge improvement to have the cutters held stationary while I file, and to have a nice angle reference.

I know the general consensus is that this stuff is useless

I don't know about the Stihl version, but I love the Oregon 90S 0.043" chain. I have two loops on a 16" bar on my 142, and the stuff flies. It originally had the big shark fin bumpers (90SG) but I ground those off. Now they make 90PX that has the ramped drive links as Philbert showed, and I have found that to work quite well in 91PX.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Have a square semi skip i hand filed to touch up ,rakes are set real good right now ,I will have to measure them see where they are at ,was squaring up some 14 inch alder on the mill last night ,could cut one handed and it was real smooth ,the weight of the saw was all it needed to feed ,Maybe i will take some pics of this chain ,it sure works good on one of my hybrid 440's

Edit i also did a dumbass move ,put the chain on backwards on the 660 ,took me a bit to figure out why it was cutting so slow ,lol

It would be nice to see a pic Brian.
Any yes, if we haven't put a chain on backwards we haven't worked in the woods. Lol

 

[Duane(Pa)]

Yes! But just think! If you get the big Piltz dogs on that 038 you can one hand it all day long! Lol

Freeing up my other hand to fondle the roost

 

[Gypo Logger]

Although a few posts were pulled due to in fighting, here's more stuff about chain. Lol
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/the-great-chain-race.2758/

 

[MustangMike]

Chris, when I used to round file by hand, I would use a paint stirrer pinched against the bar & tooth to immobilize the tooth, worked well. Would also keep the bar from moving up & down. (paint stirrer vertical, pinched against the bar & tooth with the off hand). My chains cut better when I did this, even did it if I put the bar in a vice to keep the tooth from moving.

 

[Philbert]

When we look at Oregons filing recommendations they want you to hold the file high under the cutter. I find this to be a physical impossibility, plus it starts to make a high gullet right from the start even if I could file this way.

Oregon recommends 1/5 (20%) of the file diameter be above the top plate. Some STIHL instructions recommend 1/10 (10%). The height, obviously, affects the bevel angle of the top plate cutting edge. I don't know if Oregon and STIHL disagree with the recommended angle, or if there are differences in the geometry of their cutters. But whatever height (and resultant angle) you decide you use, I think that this is an important factor in cutting performance.

As far as the 'impossible' part, this is why a lot of people use filing guides - to help them position the file consistently. This height is fixed by the flat and roller guides, but adjustable with the Granberg style, bar mount guides.

I consider shaping the gullet to be a separate task. First, shape those critical top plate and upper side plate edges to the desired angles, hook, etc. Then go back and clean out/shape the gullets. But don't let the gullet shape dictate those other angles.

Does self feed come from the rakers or the plate angles?

I understand 'self-feeding' to come from from an aggressive, or deeper, 'hook angle'. I know that my perspectives on this are not always well received. A lot of guys like a self-feeding action, where the chain pulls the saw into the cut, offering an additional sense of control. But if the chain is pulling the saw forward, it is not cutting through the wood as efficiently as it can.

An extreme case one way would be a chain that did not cut at all, but pulled the saw forward like caterpillar tracks. An extreme case the other way would be a saw that cut like a light saber through air, where the user did not feel any resistance. Neither of these are practical realities for a chainsaw. But a really sharp, efficient chain, in my opinion, should cut through the wood fibers with the least amount of forward pulling.

That said, if the saw has enough power to self-feed and make acceptable cutting progress, and the user likes this, this can be a desirable thing. But, if you file/grind that same type of profile on a chain used on a lower power saw, or on different wood, you might get a lot of bogging down, and tearing of the wood fibers, instead of clean cuts.

That's why I keep referring to thinking about this as a system of: the powerhead, bar, chain, sprocket, and chain; along with the user, the type of wood and cutting, and the way that the chain is sharpened. One-size-fits-all will not be optimal for all situations. If you don't know, start with the manufacturer's general recommendations.

Philbert

 

[Deleted member 83629]

I agree with Gypo here that it is the combination of all the components that make a saw such an efficient tool. Too many people talk about modifying their saw to gain more power and thus faster cuts but neglect the basic cause of slow cutting... a less than sharp chain. You can set the rakers with a gauge, lets say at 0.030 for a large saw in softwood or use the "soft" setting on Husqvarna gauges, and make that part of sharpening a non-variable component while you concentrate elsewhere, let's say maintaining the proper hook. Once you can set the hook then concentrate on an exact, reproducible angle. And so on, only changing one variable at a time until your chain cuts well. Of course try to run other guys' saws and ask to watch them sharpen their chain. Try out various guides and gadgets too.

Bottom line? Never stop learning and always run synthetic oil at 50:1 with 87 octane.

32:1 with 93 octane try harder lol

 

[Deets066]

Oregon recommends 1/5 (20%) of the file diameter be above the top plate. Some STIHL instructions recommend 1/10 (10%). The height, obviously, affects the bevel angle of the top plate cutting edge. I don't know if Oregon and STIHL disagree with the recommended angle, or if there are differences in the geometry of their cutters. But whatever height (and resultant angle) you decide you use, I think that this is an important factor in cutting performance.

As far as the 'impossible' part, this is why a lot of people use filing guides - to help them position the file consistently. This height is fixed by the flat and roller guides, but adjustable with the Granberg style, bar mount guides.

I consider shaping the gullet to be a separate task. First, shape those critical top plate and upper side plate edges to the desired angles, hook, etc. Then go back and clean out/shape the gullets. But don't let the gullet shape dictate those other angles.
View attachment 409243




I understand 'self-feeding' to come from from an aggressive, or deeper, 'hook angle'. I know that my perspectives on this are not always well received. A lot of guys like a self-feeding action, where the chain pulls the saw into the cut, offering an additional sense of control. But if the chain is pulling the saw forward, it is not cutting through the wood as efficiently as it can.

An extreme case one way would be a chain that did not cut at all, but pulled the saw forward like caterpillar tracks. An extreme case the other way would be a saw that cut like a light saber through air, where the user did not feel any resistance. Neither of these are practical realities for a chainsaw. But a really sharp, efficient chain, in my opinion, should cut through the wood fibers with the least amount of forward pulling.

That said, if the saw has enough power to self-feed and make acceptable cutting progress, and the user likes this, this can be a desirable thing. But, if you file/grind that same type of profile on a chain used on a lower power saw, or on different wood, you might get a lot of bogging down, and tearing of the wood fibers, instead of clean cuts.

That's why I keep referring to thinking about this as a system of: the powerhead, bar, chain, sprocket, and chain; along with the user, the type of wood and cutting, and the way that the chain is sharpened. One-size-fits-all will not be optimal for all situations. If you don't know, start with the manufacturer's general recommendations.

Philbert

I don't look at self feeding as pulling the saw forward, that's from too low of rakers. Self feed chain pulls more downward and through the log without applying any pressure.