User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
I may run my buddies 660 but it'll be more for a comparison than anything. I'm 99% sure I will have the 461 ported. Guys I appreciate the advice!
should I sell/trade my year old 461 for a 660?
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bryanr2
Addicted to ArboristSite
Randy offered you a smokin deal.
As far as his work goes.... answers in the sig, minus what I have sold. He's done 16 saws for me in 2 years.
As far as his work goes.... answers in the sig, minus what I have sold. He's done 16 saws for me in 2 years.
shootingarts
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Think you have already figured it out but don't even consider parting with the 440. Every time I have sold my "pet" anything I have regretted it even though it was the "smart" or only thing to do at the time. Not the best move for utility but you might consider porting your pet. Makes more sense to port the 460 but if you reach for the 440 more now, you won't even look at the 460 after porting the 440.
Talking out my rear here, I don't know jack about saws but what I have been reading is that the big saws offer torque not speed. Unless you get enough extra torque to pull a bigger sprocket with your commonly used bar then the only gain might be you can jam it into a log slightly harder, maybe! As somebody with a fair amount of machine shop experience I know that cutting speed with basically the same cutting edge comes down to inches per second. If the big saw is turning less RPM in the cut than a smaller ported saw and pulling the same sprocket the odds are the smaller saw will be faster. Now if everything is the same but you can run an eight pin sprocket on the bigger saw and only a seven pin on the smaller saw, you have to be over a thousand RPM faster in the cut under full load with the smaller saw to cut as fast as the big one. The key words here are "in the cut" free RPM doesn't mean a thing when it comes to cutting wood.
My guess is this is where the rubber meets the road noodling, RPM in the cut. Same with big tough wood. If you can hold both saws in their torque band it is simply a matter of chain speed which is controlled by RPM and sprocket. If the smaller saw can't pull the load and falls under it's torque band then it is toast, you have to ease it through the cut. Can be done occasionally, I just made one cut through a seasoned old pecan awhile back where I had to cut chunks out to be able to reach from all the way around to cut it with a mighty MacCat 3516! That isn't something I want to make a habit of though.
Been trying to run both saws every week or so, has led to a lot of trim work and brushing with my Makita 6401, same as a Dolmar 6400. Reaching with it and holding it at arm's length for an hour or so sure has me wondering why the hell I am running it instead of the little saw that cuts that little stuff just as fast with seemingly half the weight. One thing is fluid weight, the big saw totes a lot more gas and oil. One of the things I like but it sure adds weight.
Having said all that, you have made it very plain this is a want not a need. If you have an itch for a big saw, scratch it. If all this talk of a ported saw has you wanting a ported saw, scratch that itch. One thing might need clarifying, while they are just saying "ported" the builders on here are tuning the saw engine from end to end, it is far more than a porting job.
To throw one more thing at you, read about the MS-661. Should be back out for sure this year, probably in a few months. If I didn't need the 660 right now I would have to either run up on a super deal on one or I would sit tight and be ready to pounce on a 661 when they are available. Mastermind's thread indicates it is quite a saw even stock.
I will repeat, I don't know jack about saws, just getting back into saws after a long layoff and when I used saws I used them, I didn't play with them. A sharp chain and a saw that made noise and I was good to go. These opinions are formed from what I have read on the net over the last month or so and knowledge toted from high performance work with other things and cutting with other power tools. My "want" saw at the moment is a M-tronic 461 built by one of the top builders on this site. I don't think such a beast exists unless I frankenstein one together but your 460 ported wouldn't miss it by much. However that is my want, it might not be yours.
Hu
Talking out my rear here, I don't know jack about saws but what I have been reading is that the big saws offer torque not speed. Unless you get enough extra torque to pull a bigger sprocket with your commonly used bar then the only gain might be you can jam it into a log slightly harder, maybe! As somebody with a fair amount of machine shop experience I know that cutting speed with basically the same cutting edge comes down to inches per second. If the big saw is turning less RPM in the cut than a smaller ported saw and pulling the same sprocket the odds are the smaller saw will be faster. Now if everything is the same but you can run an eight pin sprocket on the bigger saw and only a seven pin on the smaller saw, you have to be over a thousand RPM faster in the cut under full load with the smaller saw to cut as fast as the big one. The key words here are "in the cut" free RPM doesn't mean a thing when it comes to cutting wood.
My guess is this is where the rubber meets the road noodling, RPM in the cut. Same with big tough wood. If you can hold both saws in their torque band it is simply a matter of chain speed which is controlled by RPM and sprocket. If the smaller saw can't pull the load and falls under it's torque band then it is toast, you have to ease it through the cut. Can be done occasionally, I just made one cut through a seasoned old pecan awhile back where I had to cut chunks out to be able to reach from all the way around to cut it with a mighty MacCat 3516! That isn't something I want to make a habit of though.
Been trying to run both saws every week or so, has led to a lot of trim work and brushing with my Makita 6401, same as a Dolmar 6400. Reaching with it and holding it at arm's length for an hour or so sure has me wondering why the hell I am running it instead of the little saw that cuts that little stuff just as fast with seemingly half the weight. One thing is fluid weight, the big saw totes a lot more gas and oil. One of the things I like but it sure adds weight.
Having said all that, you have made it very plain this is a want not a need. If you have an itch for a big saw, scratch it. If all this talk of a ported saw has you wanting a ported saw, scratch that itch. One thing might need clarifying, while they are just saying "ported" the builders on here are tuning the saw engine from end to end, it is far more than a porting job.
To throw one more thing at you, read about the MS-661. Should be back out for sure this year, probably in a few months. If I didn't need the 660 right now I would have to either run up on a super deal on one or I would sit tight and be ready to pounce on a 661 when they are available. Mastermind's thread indicates it is quite a saw even stock.
I will repeat, I don't know jack about saws, just getting back into saws after a long layoff and when I used saws I used them, I didn't play with them. A sharp chain and a saw that made noise and I was good to go. These opinions are formed from what I have read on the net over the last month or so and knowledge toted from high performance work with other things and cutting with other power tools. My "want" saw at the moment is a M-tronic 461 built by one of the top builders on this site. I don't think such a beast exists unless I frankenstein one together but your 460 ported wouldn't miss it by much. However that is my want, it might not be yours.
Hu
User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
Shootingarts I'm picking up what you're putting down. I think the 461 ported will more than do what I need and later I might have to port the 440. But that'll be something a little while down the road probably. I am getting excited just thinking about it! 
bryanr2
Addicted to ArboristSite
that was a joy to read your post Hu. Well written, read, and and excellent use of word choice.
VinceGU05
PSA vitim.
once i get the ported 461 off randy i'll run it up against my ported 660 and give ya my 2 bobs worth.
opcorn:
but i would also sell ya 440 for a ported 261cm and work with that as a 2 saw plan. 461 and 261cm both ported
opcorn:but i would also sell ya 440 for a ported 261cm and work with that as a 2 saw plan. 461 and 261cm both ported
User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
I would like to know what you think about the ported 461. Especially impressions from stock to ported. I would really have to think long and hard about selling the 440. Or have somebody offer a lot more $ than what I figure it's worthonce i get the ported 461 off randy i'll run it up against my ported 660 and give ya my 2 bobs worth.
but i would also sell ya 440 for a ported 261cm and work with that as a 2 saw plan. 461 and 261cm both ported
will a 046/460 cylinder work on a 461?
From the few I ran that Randy did they're animals ported. They'll run right with most ported 660s until you get over 28" bars.
No the case opening is different.
Trx250r180
Saw polisher
I have both 461 and 660 done by randy ,with a 32 inch bar buried in fir ,the 461 may have a bit more chain speed still ,but the 660 has more tourque ,for general firewood duties ,and most logging i would go 461 ,the 660 makes me sweat more after a couple hours ,it can stay on the mill ,lol
User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
I am definitely hoping to be able to send mine to randy in the next couple months. If it's everything y'all are talking it certainly will be a whole new animal. It's stout as is!
With the way things are going through my head now I may just have to keep the 440, port the 461, and purchase a 261. Darn CAD!
With the way things are going through my head now I may just have to keep the 440, port the 461, and purchase a 261. Darn CAD!
dieselfitter
ArboristSite Guru
Not to throw a wrench into the plan and recommendations, what about the MS661 that will be available again soon? Any thoughts, opinions?
Or send the 440 to me to take care of. I'll feed it good and use it as much as I can
User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
The 661 would be nice I'm sure but if the 461 ported runs as good as a 660, then I'd likely have to port the 661 too. Which, don't get me wrong, would be awesome. But I just don't have the folding money to do that right now. Heck, who am I fooling, I couldn't afford the 261 right now. Just a possible future plan.
Mdavlee - I appreciate the hospitality but it's happy where it's at at least for now!
Mdavlee - I appreciate the hospitality but it's happy where it's at at least for now!
brucew44guns
ArboristSite Member
I can understand your desire to own a large saw, and the 660 is one that I felt I needed real bad also. I've got a fantastic 041 Super that still not only looks like new, but works and cuts like new despite 34 years of heavy and hard use, just about every year since 1980. Yet the day came that I forked over a bunch of cash to own a 660. That was over 2 years ago--have not used it yet, but started it up this morning and decided our newest firewood gathering project is going to see that 660 whack some 30 inch hardwoods--it's time. So---Get you a 660 if you want one. One very nice feel in your hands.
Hey Greyfox, Just curious, why don't you still have that ported 460 and how does it stack up against your ported 441?
Locust Cutter
Sawing for Sanity
Well it's cliche' statement, BUT, after running ported, you'll never go back. You'll discover a whole new personality to you saw. One which you've yet to see courtesy of manufacturer specs. It's not their fault, they're building them to appease the EPA and other conflicting requirements. Once it's yours, and no longer subject to warranty, you can make it all that it should have been, courtesy of Brad, Randy and a few others. I don't know if Mike Lee is building them or not, but there are a few options. Having run a few modded saws (mostly cookie cutting outside of my own 2 saws) the throttle response, power, cool operating temps, etc will make you a believer. Do me and yourself a favor though, go to a GTG and run a few, preferably close to your own saw. See what you think and then make an informed decision.
I personally believe that porting them would have to take a faster toll on their bearings (increased power, load, rpm). I also am NOT a "Pro" that uses my saw day-in/day-out. I believe that my saws will last a long time at my current 20-30 cord/yr production rate. Is it worth it to me? Yes. For you?Considering you've already bought the 461 an have used it you're looking at probably $700-800ish fair-market-value, for your saw. with a price difference of $300-400 to buy a 660. If you port yours you're looking at around $250-200ish. From financial, usability, power-vs-eight ratio and prodution points of view (for the 28" bar length), I'd think that the answer would be a resounding yes, but it's your saw/choice.
FWIW, the 660 is a great saw but it's a 28-32" saw (for me, in hard-woods) due to oiling and power concerns, unless you get a full-wrap model with the High Output oiler, as that fixes the oiling issue. I bought my Dolmar as it and the 395xp both oil better than the 660 and have better stumping torque. I'm not knocking the 660 as I had one and miss it. I still bought a 9010 to replace it, NOT a 660. Just saying.
Ironworker
Addicted to ArboristSite
I didn't own it, I just ran it at Bob's gtg, haven't had a chance to run my 441 yet, still recovering from elbow surgery.
User Name Here
Lowly Firewood Cutter
I figured i'd revive my old thread instead of starting a new one. I have decided to go ahead and port the 461. I have already set it up with randy. Too bad it's going to be January (my choice not randy's) but I figure I should be able to live without it for a couple weeks then. After a few things delaying me pulling the trigger, I'm more than excited to finally get to it. To be honest I'm already thinking whether I'll be getting my 440 ported also after this one. I'd still love to get a 261 and port it too but I'd have to do some "horse trading" before that would be possible.
I just couldn't keep from posting about this!
I just couldn't keep from posting about this!
Just remember that if you get a 660 you are buying a near 30 year old saw design, not many folks ever mention this as they are still sitting on shelves looking like the latest and greatest. In its day the 660 was a high tech saw with all the quality hallmarks associated with a stihl product, sadly its day was along time ago and many improvments in design have been on stihl's newer generation saws. l have a one year old 660 with 3 tanks of fuel through it....and it has been at the saw day spa in TN for some lovin. Builders can improve there performance but can't change the fact the saw is technology from three decades ago. A 461 however has more modern tech but if you get the 661 you will be buying possibly the most high tech saw on the market, a saw that represents technology of this century. My stock Solo 681 spanks my nighbours 460, wieghs less, has more power, better spring AV and will also beat my 660. The 660 was an industry leader in IT'S DAY!
